Airpooler: legal or not?

Palmpilot

Palmpilot

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Apr 1, 2007
Messages
22,431
Location
PUDBY
Display Name
Display name:
Richard Palm
https://www.airpooler.com/

They claim to satisfy the common purpose doctrine by having the pilots list their planned trips, and then passengers look for someone going where they want to go.

They seem to be holding out to the public. :dunno:
 
The problem is holding out to the public. Even if you are going there anyhow, advertising (even to the point of just posting notices on a (physical) bulletin board) has been found to be illegal common carriage.

At least these clowns haven't spammed me to death like the asshat at pilotswanta135violation.com
 
Iffy. The letter I got from the FAA Counsel on this issue for a very similar site is attached. Essentially, pilots posting occasional "I'm going here on this date" notes are probably legal if that's all they do and don't alter their plans (either destination or date) to suit the passenger. Pilots offering to take passengers when and where the passenger wants (including responding to passenger's posts requesting transportation to particular places and/or on particular dates), or making offers on a regular basis, almost certainly aren't.

In any event, it's an inviting target for a bored FAA Inspector with nothing better to do some rainy afternoon (and R&W can tell us whether they really do have something better to do). Further, if you do post something outside the lines, you've provided them all the evidence they need to hang you on a downloadable silver platter.
 

Attachments

  • FAA Letter - Ride Sharing.pdf
    55 KB · Views: 49
Last edited:
American Airlines can now start operating Part 91......

"We have a Boeing 737 going from DFW to JFK everyday this week at 10:00am"

"We have seats available for "cost sharing", so for $300 we can "share" a seat with you"


Someone hear a duck quacking????
 
RotorAndWing said:
American Airlines can now start operating Part 91......

"We have a Boeing 737 going from DFW to JFK everyday this week at 10:00am"

"We have seats available for "cost sharing", so for $300 we can "share" a seat with you"


Someone hear a duck quacking????
Click to expand...

That gave me a good chuckle! :thumbsup:

I do suspect they might have trouble finding enough 737-qualified pilots to fly all of AA's flights, given that they would have to pay $300 per flight instead of getting paid!
 
Last edited:
Ron Levy said:
Iffy. The letter I got from the FAA Counsel on this issue for a very similar site is attached. Essentially, pilots posting occasional "I'm going here on this date" notes are probably legal if that's all they do and don't alter their plans (either destination or date) to suit the passenger. Pilots offering to take passengers when and where the passenger wants (including responding to passenger's posts requesting transportation to particular places and/or on particular dates), or making offers on a regular basis, almost certainly aren't.

In any event, it's an inviting target for a bored FAA Inspector with nothing better to do some rainy afternoon (and R&W can tell us whether they really do have something better to do). Further, if you do post something outside the lines, you've provided them all the evidence they need to hang you on a downloadable silver platter.
Click to expand...

And if pilots start canceling trips whenever nobody signs up to ride with them, that would certainly seem to be a red flag.
 
RotorAndWing said:
American Airlines can now start operating Part 91......

"We have a Boeing 737 going from DFW to JFK everyday this week at 10:00am"

"We have seats available for "cost sharing", so for $300 we can "share" a seat with you"


Someone hear a duck quacking????
Click to expand...

American Airlines ..:dunno:


Let's rename it AFLAC AIR...;):rofl:
 
Palmpilot said:
That gave me a good chuckle! :thumbsup:

I do suspect they might have trouble finding enough 737-qualified pilots to fly all of AA's flights, given that they would have pay $300 per flight instead of getting paid!
Click to expand...

Um...have you seen what people will do for time-building, especially in turbines? $300 for some twin-turbine 737 goodness would have pilots kicking the doors down.
 
Palmpilot said:
That gave me a good chuckle! :thumbsup:

I do suspect they might have trouble finding enough 737-qualified pilots to fly all of AA's flights, given that they would have pay $300 per flight instead of getting paid!
Click to expand...

They be crawling out of the woodwork to get 'big shiny jet' time at just $300 a flight.
 
RotorAndWing said:
American Airlines can now start operating Part 91......

"We have a Boeing 737 going from DFW to JFK everyday this week at 10:00am"

"We have seats available for "cost sharing", so for $300 we can "share" a seat with you"


Someone hear a duck quacking????
Click to expand...

The analogy doesn't hold. American isn't charging a pro-rata share. They are charging to make a profit. (At least they are trying to.)

This is not to say that I am of the opinion that the ride sharing board is legal.
 
Ron Levy said:
Iffy. The letter I got from the FAA Counsel on this issue for a very similar site is attached. Essentially, pilots posting occasional "I'm going here on this date" notes are probably legal if that's all they do and don't alter their plans (either destination or date) to suit the passenger. Pilots offering to take passengers when and where the passenger wants (including responding to passenger's posts requesting transportation to particular places and/or on particular dates), or making offers on a regular basis, almost certainly aren't.

In any event, it's an inviting target for a bored FAA Inspector with nothing better to do some rainy afternoon (and R&W can tell us whether they really do have something better to do). Further, if you do post something outside the lines, you've provided them all the evidence they need to hang you on a downloadable silver platter.
Click to expand...

Interesting opinion. At what point does communication become advertising? If I post on a web site that I intend to fly on a specific date and time to a specific location, and would welcome sharing the ride, how does that differ from telling someone that in person? I see arguments on both sides.
 
PPC1052 said:
The analogy doesn't hold. American isn't charging a pro-rata share. They are charging to make a profit. (At least they are trying to.)

This is not to say that I am of the opinion that the ride sharing board is legal.
Click to expand...

The board is legal, utilizing the board one has to be pretty careful since you're balancing on a fine line. Considering there is one flight listed, I doubt it will attract to much adverse attention.
 
Henning said:
Considering there is one flight listed, I doubt it will attract to much adverse attention.
Click to expand...

And I know the pilot and even tried to fly that very airplane last night (found it parked in front of Mx -- I'm guessing there was an undocumented reason for that).

It's the club owner trying to drum up traffic to the site.

It's kinda curious why he split a 4 seat Archer only two ways. This time of year, going to Columbia, that aircraft could almost fill all the seats with adults with fuel to the tabs (4x200 lb adults is about 15 lb overweight).

I don't see it "taking off" even with the club pushing it, due to the obvious borderline legalities.
 
Last edited:
Henning said:
They be crawling out of the woodwork to get 'big shiny jet' time at just $300 a flight.
Click to expand...

In sufficient numbers to replace AA's entire pilot workforce? I'm skeptical. Remember, they would all have to have the appropriate type ratings.
 
Henning said:
They be crawling out of the woodwork to get 'big shiny jet' time at just $300 a flight.
Click to expand...

Hell, I'd pay the same fare to fly up front on any airline flight I have to be on!

Hmmm... Maybe I should try this:

seat_selection.png
 
Palmpilot said:
In sufficient numbers to replace AA's entire pilot workforce? I'm skeptical. Remember, they would all have to have the appropriate type ratings.
Click to expand...

The entire flight training industry is built on people with shiny jet syndrome willing to pay to get training and flight time.
 
JeffDG said:
The entire flight training industry is built on people with shiny jet syndrome willing to pay to get training and flight time.
Click to expand...

Yep, AA has a whole building full of simulators. If they could get rid of their union and get pilots to commit to flying 50 days a year paying $300 a day and selling type ratings for $7500, they would make a mint.
 
PPC1052 said:
Interesting opinion. At what point does communication become advertising?
Click to expand...
When the FAA thinks it quacks (looks like) a commercial operation.

Folks tend to read more than there is in the "holding out" piece. Part of that is the FAA's fault. "Holding out" is a traditional (i.e., much older than aviation) test for whether something is private or public. Advertising doesn't necessarily make something improper. For example, a CFI can "hold out" to his heart's content availability for flight instruction and a ferry pilot can advertise his availability during the Super Bowl if she wants.

It gets dicey in the 61.113/119.1 arena because, as others noted, the ultimate test when we look at private vs commercial operations is whether it walks and quacks like a duck, the "duck" in this case being a commercial operation. The FAA interprets "holding out" and other principles like "flight time as compensation" and "good will as compensation" as needed to get at the conduct.

So the real question you are asking is, at what point does holding out start looking like a commercial operation. So, for example, you get the Chief Counsel's "punt" on the FaceBook in the Haberkorn Opinion.

like_a_duck.png
 
Last edited:
It kind of points out how difficult it is to use general aviation for a common means of transportation. Unless the website had EVERY GA flight listed, it is doubtful a passenger would ever find anything that would be beneficial.

I can't imagine anyone wanting to go to the same smalltown airport 200 miles away on the same day that I do, and wanting to leave at the same time I want to, knowing that there are 100 reasons I may change my mind and not go, or go somewhere else.

Seems like the actual market for matched flights would be a challenge. Have to find difficult to drive to destinations that have lots of people needing to travel, yet don't have airline service. Maybe guys that regularly commute??
 
I can't imagine anyone wanting to ride with me to Lovelock, NV (desert airport in the middle of nowhere), sit there for 20 minutes and then come home.
 
It may be that the marketplace will render moot the question of legality.
 
Palmpilot said:
It may be that the marketplace will render moot the question of legality.
Click to expand...

Every couple if years someone seems to have the same 'great idea'. The reality is very few people want to fly in dangerous little planes and the ones who do are already hooked up.
 
DesertNomad said:
I can't imagine anyone wanting to ride with me to Lovelock, NV (desert airport in the middle of nowhere), sit there for 20 minutes and then come home.
Click to expand...

I was thinking Winnemucca or Elko when I said 200 miles away....
 
I worked with the guy from FlyteNow.com

I think there'd be some interest in ride-sharing for the $100 hamburger, an overflight trip of Boston, or a day-trip down to Martha's Vineyard. Boston is a unique aviation market where GA actually may make sense for some trips.
 
MAKG1 said:
Maybe OJ Simpson. That's where he's serving time….

Don't pick up hitchhikers. :)
Click to expand...

Speaking of Nevada, I wonder if there's an airport at Mustang Ranch? :D
 
PPC1052 said:
Interesting opinion. At what point does communication become advertising?
Click to expand...
The letter clearly states that they will judge each case on its own merits, and that they are not planning to lay out standards or rules for pilot to use.

If I post on a web site that I intend to fly on a specific date and time to a specific location, and would welcome sharing the ride, how does that differ from telling someone that in person? I see arguments on both sides.
Click to expand...
Good question. If you read that letter carefully, you'll see that the nature of the web site and the scope of its viewership will be some of the factors in their decision, so which web site you post on may affect the outcome. My personal advice would be "just don't do it", but if you want to tickle the dragon's tail, I'll be very interested to see what happens so I can better advise the next person.

And the FAA's rules on pilot privileges/limitations and carriage for hire aside, do you really want to have someone you don't know hop in your plane and go for a ride? Or get stopped at the other end and have illegal items found in your passenger's possession? That would be like being the driver of a car -- you may eventually beat the rap, but you'll spend time in a holding cell with Bubba and pay a lot for your criminal defense attorney before it's over. No thanks.
 
Last edited:
Those rideshare boards can be useful for pilots to get together to share a ride. On a multi-hop trip each pilot can act as PIC for a particular leg and pay 100% of the cost for that leg.
 
I see it vary hard for the FAA to prove a thing when every body shuts their mouth.

I can give any one a ride in my aircraft. they can even choose where we go and when we go.
 
Tom-D said:
I see it vary hard for the FAA to prove a thing when every body shuts their mouth.

I can give any one a ride in my aircraft. they can even choose where we go and when we go.
Click to expand...

As long as you pay the whole bill, sure.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top