Airplane turning loads and aerodynamics

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alfadog said:
Yes and yes. Just checked the FAA Pilot Handbook which is quite comprehensive otherwise and they go with the over-simplified "The horizontal component of lift is the force that pulls the aircraft from a straight flightpath to make it turn."

http://www.faa.gov/regulations_poli...on/pilot_handbook/media/PHAK - Chapter 04.pdf

Again, a turn involves rotation. Simply banking the wings would not induce rotation in the x - y plane (of course there is rotation around the longitudinal axis) but would cause the airplane to translate, not rotate. Rotation is caused by force couples, i.e. torque. The horizontal component of lift is only one force. Single forces cause linear motion, i.e. translation. A second coplanar force in the opposite direction is required for rotation. This second force is provided by the tailfeathers.
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Which is why Wolfgang said..."The back pressure on the stick is not necessary in order to get a turn".

Saying "the elevator turns the plane" is saying....you won't get a turn without using the elevator.
I'm with Wolfgang.

alfadog said:
Rick Stowell is very big on "the elevator turns the airplane".
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May I humbly suggest reading "Stick and Rudder" - I just finished it and it explains everything wonderfully....
 
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Scud_072 said:
May I humbly suggest reading "Stick and Rudder" - I just finished it and it explains everything wonderfully....
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I was just looking at Stick and Rudder. On page 200, the picture is captioned, "An airplane turns because it is banked" but he doesn't mention how the airplane got into the bank. The further explanation goes on to reference weathervaning. It is true that the elevator is part of the tail but even if you don't move the elevator the airplane will still be weathervaning and turning.

Maybe everyone is saying the same thing only I am starting out earlier in the process, from when the airplane was flying straight and level. At that point I doubt if anyone would say to themselves, "I'm going to turn with the elevator!"
 
Everskyward said:
Maybe everyone is saying the same thing only I am starting out earlier in the process, from when the airplane was flying straight and level. At that point I doubt if anyone would say to themselves, "I'm going to turn with the elevator!"
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Anyone? Immelman did to avoid getting shot.

dtuuri
 
It's all vector quantities. Just look at Dturri's diagram. Doesn't matter if it's a fixedwing or rotorcraft, you have to do something to make up for the reduction in the vertical component of lift.
 
Velocity173 said:
It's all vector quantities. Just look at Dturri's diagram. Doesn't matter if it's a fixedwing or rotorcraft, you have to do something to make up for the reduction in the vertical component of lift.
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You only need to do something to make up for the reduction in the vertical component of lift if you want to maintain altitude. If you do nothing to make up for it you will still be turning but also descending. Wait, I remember typing this before somewhere...
 
Everskyward said:
I was just looking at Stick and Rudder. On page 200, the picture is captioned, "An airplane turns because it is banked" but he doesn't mention how the airplane got into the bank. The further explanation goes on to reference weathervaning. It is true that the elevator is part of the tail but even if you don't move the elevator the airplane will still be weathervaning and turning.

Maybe everyone is saying the same thing only I am starting out earlier in the process, from when the airplane was flying straight and level. At that point I doubt if anyone would say to themselves, "I'm going to turn with the elevator!"
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Yes he does, you just have to backup. It's on page 196 :wink2:

He talks about the student banking with ailerons.
 
redtail said:
Yes he does, you just have to backup. It's on page 196 :wink2:

He talks about the student banking with ailerons.
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Yes! LOL.

He also says that at the end of the turn the student, "can stop the turn only by using strong opposite stick and rudder - right rudder and right aileron to straighten out from a left turn". He doesn't mention using elevator to do this.

Again, I was talking more about the process of getting into a turn rather than what happens when you already established in it. After all, getting into a turn involves aerodynamics too.
 
Everskyward said:
Yes! LOL.

He also says that at the end of the turn the student, "can stop the turn only by using strong opposite stick and rudder - right rudder and right aileron to straighten out from a left turn". He doesn't mention using elevator to do this.
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I agree.

Everskyward said:
Again, I was talking more about the process of getting into a turn rather than what happens when you already established in it. After all, getting into a turn involves aerodynamics too.
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We're on the same page.:yesnod:
 
Everskyward said:
Again, I was talking more about the process of getting into a turn rather than what happens when you already established in it. After all, getting into a turn involves aerodynamics too.
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Well, some of us were addressing the OP:
fiveoboy01 said:
Help me understand what goes on in a turn beyond the basics that I've read in the various manuals and handbooks.
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dtuuri
 
FastEddieB said:
So sorry.

I was talking about the dog's mom of course.

But condolences nonetheless.
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No harm no foul. I figured you were. After that gang-bang I received in the other thread, I had to make sure.

It takes a man to clear things up on a public forum and not devolve into the gutter. You're man quotient just went up a notch with me. :thumbsup:
 
dtuuri said:
Well, some of us were addressing the OP:
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The correct answer was in post #2 then we all got sidetracked. :rofl:

Or maybe that answer was too simple and we can never have simple answers here. :D
 
BobThePilot said:
Why does everyone rave about "Stick and Rudder"? It is a terrible book. Yes, I read it. What a piece of crap. Emperor's New Clothing, people. Open your eyes.

:redface:

For the OP... Please turn in your certificate. Good God man!
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Nah, I'm going to hang onto it. Worked pretty hard to get that sucker.

For the rest of you who have contributed to the thread with something useful, thanks. I understand a little better now. Sure I can make a coordinated turn, and I could before the thread... but I always like to understand how things work a little deeper than what the more basic books teach.
 
denverpilot said:
Let's add in P-factor for another 20 pages in this thread!!!!! :)
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We didn't get to that class yet:)

First we need to get a glider, disconnect the elevator/stabilator/trim controls, tow it up to ten thousand feet, roll it over into a twenty degree bank (coordinated aileron/rudder), and see if Wolfgang knew what he was talking about.:lol:
 
FastEddieB said:
Never been demonstrated.

If it was real, helicopters could not fly forward.
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Uh right. You clearly don't know anything about helicopters.

What ever happened to the idea of taking a pass on subjects you know nothing about? Here's a start:

helicopterpage.com/html/dol.html

I apologize if your post was not serious, and was an attempt at humor. If so, use those emoticons. If not- aye aye aye. You're an instructor??
 
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FastEddieB said:
sarchasm - n.

The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it.
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You must understand that the amount of head-up-assery displayed by some people in a couple recent threads here means you will be well served by the use of emoticons when called for. They exist for a reason. ;)
 
OK. :hairraise:

But...

1) I never use emoticons. :no:

2) How else are we going to get to 20 pages? :mad2:

3) When scientists don't even know how bumblebees fly! :confused:

4) Much less helicopters! :rolleyes2:
 
RoscoeT said:
You must understand that the amount of head-up-assery displayed by some people in a couple recent threads here means you will be well served by the use of emoticons when called for. They exist for a reason. ;)
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Ooh. You may have given me a New Year's Resolution. Stop using emoticons to see how many people I can throw into a tizzy.
 
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