Airline Pilots "Forgetting how to fly"?

Makes perfect sense, to me. Any skill we don't practice regularly atrophies.

I've watched friends fly King Airs, and even those planes require so little pilot input that I would be surprised if someone who flew one every day didn't find their stick and rudder skills diminished over time.

Extend that into a 777, or an Airbus...
 
But but but, technology is always the best answer.

Hmmm. Wasn't it the news agencies that kept blithering on how pilots are the cause of crashes.
 
I will buy that, we had a local pilot looking to buy an E-LSA and took his 10000 hour commercial pilot buddy with him to test fly it. He crashed it and dang near killed both of them.
 
Thought this was interesting:

"French investigators recommended that all pilots get mandatory training in manual flying and handling a high-altitude stall"

Mandatory training in manual flying!!! And handling a stall!!! Houston, we have a problem.
 
My airline pilot neighbor had no problem with my little taildragger LSA in spite of the fact that he hadn't landed a taildragger for over a decade.:dunno:
 
A CFI friend who still owns a C-150 and teaches in it while flying 777s at his normal job, said...

"Maybe we ought to go back to teaching the kids in a J-3 for the basics first."

I get the feeling (that sentence is actually paraphrased and longer than his, he's a man of few words, but they're usually right) that he's saying there's not just a problem of forgetting... some of these folks never learned basic stick and rudder skills to a level necessary before they went to the glass/autopilot/fancy toys.

He has also been in Civil Air Patrol longer than I've been alive, and was the first to predict to me that a G1000 would kill a crew. Then two seasoned pilots in Arizona hit the only mountain for 1000 miles at their altitude in a G1000-equipped bird, at night.

While we properly and firmly place that error at the pilot's graves, we also know in the back of their heads they "felt safer" with the electronics on board.

Whether or not they'd have done it if they had to be more actively involved in the flightpath doing some VOR cross-checks and looking at a chart, is something we'll all never know.

We had chatted about his prediction for a while on the phone one night and he was more concerned about mountain searches... no one we know who knows how to properly and safely fly a mountain contour or canyon search is looking in the cockpit at all... or very little. Then we chatted again on the phone after it happened. All I had to say was, "Yep... you were right."
 
Whether or not they'd have done it if they had to be more actively involved in the flightpath doing some VOR cross-checks and looking at a chart, is something we'll all never know.

Looking at a chart, preferably before flight, certainly would have helped.

I still wonder what was going on at the time. My Garmin 696 would have been screaming terrain alerts, as well as a flashing terrain box, if the "terrain" function overlay isn't on. It's never failed to do this. Nearly all my flying is mountainous.

However, there is no doubt in my mind, that "todays" GPS and related hardware/software is a mega improvement over the VOR system. Especially at night/IMC. Using this technology is much different than forgetting which way to push/pull the yoke in a stall.

L.Adamson
 
These articles clearly extrapolate from one case, which is a deadly sin. When airliners start stalling and falling like autumn leaves, then let us talk. I am quite disappointed that officials join the fun who ought to know better.

The AF447 case was quite difficult and had only tangential link to stick and rudder skills. There was no horizon, they were over an ocean. The airplane remained responsive to controls throughtout, even deep into the stall (which actually could be a bad thing: if it dropped a wing or nosedived, they could've clued in). The crew should have prioritized pitch information from the displays while ignoring error indication from the airspeed and using GPS. They needed an equivalent of those INOP suction covers, only mental. This is hardly a skill that daytime J-3 jock possesses. It is my opinion that taildragger time would do exactly nothing to save AF447.
 
Then two seasoned pilots in Arizona hit the only mountain for 1000 miles at their altitude in a G1000-equipped bird, at night.

If you're referring to the CAP crash in a G1000 equipped Cessna, you have your location and situation mixed up a bit.
 
I can honestly say that one of the most frightening experiences I have ever had in a small aeroplane is flying with an ex-airline pilot in his Cessna.
 
If you're referring to the CAP crash in a G1000 equipped Cessna, you have your location and situation mixed up a bit.

Nevada? Arizona? I probably goofed the details other than VFR night CFIT into the only mountain for a long ways around... and two very high time pilots who seemingly were well-regarded from Internet stuff posted about 'em.
 
I can honestly say that one of the most frightening experiences I have ever had in a small aeroplane is flying with an ex-airline pilot in his Cessna.


I can honestly say that one of the most frightening experiences I have ever had in a small aeroplane is flying with an private pilot in his Cessna. :rolleyes:
 
I can honestly say that one of the most frightening experiences I have ever had in a small aeroplane is flying with an private pilot in his Cessna. :rolleyes:
I can honestly say that one of the most frightening experiences I have ever had was driving with a teenager in city traffic. :hairraise:
 
The 2 I flew with were very competent...of course one of them (320 Capt) kept flaring at 35-40 feet the first couple of times...


---
- Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Makes perfect sense, to me. Any skill we don't practice regularly atrophies.

I've watched friends fly King Airs, and even those planes require so little pilot input that I would be surprised if someone who flew one every day didn't find their stick and rudder skills diminished over time.

Extend that into a 777, or an Airbus...
+1. Practice helps prevent accidents. And it shouldn't just be once every two years when the CFI "whips" their flight review or some hour in a sim proving they can "fly" a heavy. Maybe every review should be a checkride. Then again, the same should be said for a drivers license.
 
Looking at a chart, preferably before flight, certainly would have helped.

I still wonder what was going on at the time. My Garmin 696 would have been screaming terrain alerts, as well as a flashing terrain box, if the "terrain" function overlay isn't on. It's never failed to do this. Nearly all my flying is mountainous.

However, there is no doubt in my mind, that "todays" GPS and related hardware/software is a mega improvement over the VOR system. Especially at night/IMC. Using this technology is much different than forgetting which way to push/pull the yoke in a stall.

L.Adamson

Looking at a chart prior to a night flight should be simple common sense, and in my little Warrior, with it's array of steam gages, it does not take too much prodding. Now I have an Aera 510 that automatically starts nagging me when I come close to the dirt piles we have around San Diego.

I'm thinking I have to agree with others on this thread who pointed out the false sense of security our fancy new toys give us.

It's just too darn easy to just jump in your plane, flip on the GPS and go.
You can select your flight plan while your in the air, since they are all memorized. Scrolling down looking for the one you want can render you pretty oblivious to all that bothersome stuff outside the window.

Then there is one of those silly rules in the FARs about knowing all the information you can possibly garner about a flight, prior to the flight. Why do you need to do that if you have a GPS to tell you all about it while your on your way?

If you have the toys, you almost have to force yourself to follow the basic rules of flying, they just make it way too easy to ignore them.

Fortunately for me, I only have the one GPS, and I still feel green enough that I keep current charts and a copy of the A/F Directory in my plane. I actually prefer my VORs and charts for local putzing about flying because that is what I am used to. It's also my back yard, so all the VOR does is confirm what I already know.

John
 
Wow -- this story made the front page of the Corpus Christi Caller-Times today.
 
Well in cruise flight above FL280 it's pretty much the law that the autopilot be on. Descents and climbs to and from could be manual. The autopilots are so complex most sim instructors consider it poor technique when you can't get the autopilot to do something and have to resort to manual control.
 
I'm thinking I have to agree with others on this thread who pointed out the false sense of security our fancy new toys give us.

They're far from "toys".......

I've seen the results of enough CFIT, to know better.

L.Adamson
 
Well in cruise flight above FL280 it's pretty much the law that the autopilot be on. Descents and climbs to and from could be manual. The autopilots are so complex most sim instructors consider it poor technique when you can't get the autopilot to do something and have to resort to manual control.

Lovely when it's deferred.

"Center, autopilots deferred, can we get block altitude from FL250 to FL270?"
 
Was talking to a friend who flies the North Atlantic about the MLOD and accuracy of GPS these days.

He mentioned that I should go look up "SLOP". Strategic Lateral Offset Procedure.

With RVSM, wake turbulence has become an issue as well as aircraft that for whatever reason are off their assigned altitude by 300' or more become a much larger collision risk.

Recommended procedure is to fly centerline of the track, 1NM offset right, or 2NM offset, pilot's discretion.

He says he's flown for an hour or more with his RADAR altimeter showing 1000' AGL while a 747 passed him 1000' below.

All I found was this link. There's probably better references. Been around since 2004 apparently.

http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/1067.pdf

Interesting.
 
With RVSM, wake turbulence has become an issue as well as aircraft that for whatever reason are off their assigned altitude by 300' or more become a much larger collision risk.

This is true.

Recommended procedure is to fly centerline of the track, 1NM offset right, or 2NM offset, pilot's discretion.

This is also true.

He says he's flown for an hour or more with his RADAR altimeter showing 1000' AGL while a 747 passed him 1000' below.

That is pretty interesting to watch.

Actually, in addition to the above, a not insignificant reason to SLOP is on airways or tracks that allow for two way traffic. You could be at one flight level and another flight could be opposite direction 1000 feet above or below. If each flight is offset 1 or 2 miles to the right, then if one or both flights were off altitude, a chance of collision is much reduced.

SLOP is a direct result of the accuracy of the navigation systems in modern airplanes.
 
Was talking to a friend who flies the North Atlantic about the MLOD and accuracy of GPS these days.

He mentioned that I should go look up "SLOP". Strategic Lateral Offset Procedure.

With RVSM, wake turbulence has become an issue as well as aircraft that for whatever reason are off their assigned altitude by 300' or more become a much larger collision risk.

Recommended procedure is to fly centerline of the track, 1NM offset right, or 2NM offset, pilot's discretion.

He says he's flown for an hour or more with his RADAR altimeter showing 1000' AGL while a 747 passed him 1000' below.

All I found was this link. There's probably better references. Been around since 2004 apparently.

http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/1067.pdf

Interesting.


Cool stuff :yesnod:

Is wake turbulence as strong within RVSM as it would be when in trail on on arrival -- They put us 1,000 below the jets on arrivals into Houston. If we are less than 5 miles we can get rocked pretty good sometimes. Slower speeds = more closely spaced vorticies being my theory for why the ride may be smoother in RVSM - but putting that out there for discetion.
 
The autopilots are so complex most sim instructors consider it poor technique when you can't get the autopilot to do something and have to resort to manual control.
Aren't you required to do a certain number of hand-flown approaches when you go to initial or recurrent? It also seems like the first thing we do each time is climb out and do steep turns, the stall series and unusual attitudes. Possibly one of the problems is they way they teach stalls. It's more like a proficiency maneuver than a stall recovery. The object has always been not to lose altitude, and that requires pulling back at the shaker because at least with with fuselage-mounted engines when you add all that power the nose wants to pitch down. This works at low altitudes (approx. 15,000') because of the excess thrust available. It would not work so well at 35,000' or whatever altitude they were at. The last time I went to recurrent I did the stalls the way I have been doing them for 10 years or whatever, and they informed me that now they want to see at least a little pitch down before recovering.

I also think that the reason they spend so much time teaching the automation is that it is where people have most of the trouble. Once you have it programmed right you can sit there and watch the airplane fly but the challenge is to have it programmed right, especially if you get some unexpected route or approach change. For every one time someone mishandles the airplane manually there's probably 100 automation goofs.
 
These articles clearly extrapolate from one case, which is a deadly sin. When airliners start stalling and falling like autumn leaves, then let us talk. I am quite disappointed that officials join the fun who ought to know better.

The AF447 case was quite difficult and had only tangential link to stick and rudder skills. There was no horizon, they were over an ocean. The airplane remained responsive to controls throughtout, even deep into the stall (which actually could be a bad thing: if it dropped a wing or nosedived, they could've clued in). The crew should have prioritized pitch information from the displays while ignoring error indication from the airspeed and using GPS. They needed an equivalent of those INOP suction covers, only mental. This is hardly a skill that daytime J-3 jock possesses. It is my opinion that taildragger time would do exactly nothing to save AF447.
'zactly!

It was even on the NBC World News tonight.

John

The NBC Nighly News story had me sceaming at the TV.

Yeah, the Buffalo commuter stalled the plane. I have more hours that that crew had, combined.

The Air France was more like a JFK, Jr. - a different animal. They knew to fly the plane but they had to know where the horizon really was.

After they have a couple of "experts' flapping jaws "ATP Union rep: Pilots are pros and have very few accidents." Of course. ...Conclusion: "...maintaining pilot skills means disengaging auto-pilot and flying the plane by hand." Ya think? I guess that makes me really skilled.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032619/ns/nightly_news/

What is really aggravating is one stooppid "journalist" picks ups a bogus story and 1-2 days later Brian Williams reads it to the TV national audience.
 
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Fun stuff watching oncoming traffic passing 1000' above you at RVSM altitudes. 1,000mph closing speeds are impressive. Autopilots really are a good idea and for long periods of time hold altitude better than hand flying. It's a lot less stressful too.
 
It strikes me as odd that folks flying bug smashers often look down their nose at airline pilots. "They've forgotten how to fly!", or "They rely too much on automation", or whatever the complaint of the day is.

The truth is flying a transport category airplane is just different that flying a C172. The 777 pilot is a systems manager. They are very complex aircraft and have multiple layers of redundancy across many systems.

Can you hand fly a 777? Sure, but the passengers are paying for the safest ride possible and that means having the auto-pilot on freeing the pilots up to monitor and do other flight chores. If the AP craps out it is a massive addition of workload taking one pilot completely out of the 'systems management' part of the job. Now there is only 1 pilot to do the work of what was 2.

Add a loss of FMS to the no AP scenario and it's dang near an inflight emergency. (no, I wouldn't declare one just yet but it would be a report to ATC). The point is, anything that takes away from the pilots situational awareness by adding workload is detracting from safety. That is why the AP goes on so soon and stays on for the duration.

Me, I hand fly more than most. I usually take it up to 6 or 7K before turning the AP on and turn it off as soon as I get cleared for the visual. I always back up a visual with an ILS if its available so there's ILS hand flying. If I'm in the soup with pax I don't hand fly approaches. The pax are paying for more safety than that.

Btw, I am a huge believer of turning off the AP when it's not doing what I want. Way too often I see people try to unscrew a situation by banging on buttons on the FCP. If the AP is taking the plane right and you want to go left then programming the box isn't the fix. Turning off the AP and turning the way you want is the fix. Heck, I even saw someone try to recover from a stall with the AP. (long story...I was not impressed!)
 
I have no doubt that there are ATPs that "have forgotten how to fly" but I would be willing to wager that in any profession there are those who go through the motions without really committing themselves to doing their job 100%. The difference in aviation is that if an accountant drops a decimal point, no one dies. The term "professional" assumes a personal ethical commitment to perform at their highest level at all times. I am sure there are FOs who know their Captains are more or less phoning it in and keep quiet. I try to learn something every time I strap in, and constantly evaluate my mission and my decision tree as that mission progresses. If pilots can't fly, they know it, and if they haven't the moral wherewithal to take responsibility to rectify their faltering skills, then they are the first link in the accident chain.
 
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I used to do a lot of transitioning between fast airplanes and small airplanes. To go fly a Lear 24 for a while, then jump back into an ag airplane was always an experience, but it was just as strange a transition going back. Different requirements, different ways of thinking and doing things.

In the more automated aircraft, there's definitely a loss of rudimentary stick and rudder skills among those who don't do any outside flying or engage in types of flying that can maintain those skills. I know some airline pilots who wouldn't think of doing any outside flying or training, and I know others who own their own light aircraft and do flying on the side. There's a difference in what could be expected from either group.

A regular part of our recurrent initial and recurrent training in a large Boeing used to be raw data, hand-flown NDB approaches. Presently, our internal policy is that "raw data" always includes the flight director, which came as a result of other changes regarding how we do approaches and our authorizations and capabilities. We still do the NDB in training, but now it has RNAV overlay, and doesn't resemble much of an NDB any more.

I personally know several individuals flying large airplanes who have stalled the aircraft inadvertently. One was a stall on departure in a 747-400, and came as a result of being new in the aircraft and not managing it properly. Unlike the 747-200 from which that pilot had come, nearly everything in the -400 is done through the Flight Management Computer. One becomes a typist and programmer, rather than an aviator. Unlike the classic, the airplane manages descent profiles, and nearly every other aspect of the operation. The crew only tells the airplane what they want it to do.

For those who don't seek proficiency outside of recurrent training, it's reasonable to believe that basic skills suffer. I know pilots who scarcely ever operate without the autopilot, and others who don't. I prefer to hand fly at least to FL270 or higher on every departure, and usually hand fly every other approach. When I'm at work, it's about the only actual flying I get to do; the rest is managing through the autopilot system. That said, the type of flying that's been done also makes a difference.

For those who are doing the same two or three destinations, under the same conditions, and all of it automated, it's possible that a number of skills may begin to atrophy. Not everyone does that, however, and not everyone that does that does only that.

Before making the generalization that the airline or corporate pilot can't fly, what of the private pilot that only gets an hour here or there each year? Everyone is different. I would say that flying a lot , every day, every week, every month, and getting regular, professional industry-standard recurrent training shouldn't be dismissed.

There are differences; in a light airplane, we practice full stalls. This isn't practical in a large four engine transport in most cases; we practice avoiding the stall in the first place recognition, and recovery. In a small light airplane while spraying a field, I do steep turns every 30 seconds at each end of the field, sometimes right to the buffet. In a large airplane, I'm limited on after takeoff to 15 degrees of bank because of my stall margins, until I have at least ten knots above my takeoff safety speed; even then I'm limited to 25 degrees of bank. Not nearly as dramatic, but mainly just different.

Flying an approach to landing at 630,000 lbs isn't just about basic stick and rudder skills, but about energy management. If following the localizer and the airlplane drifts to one side, then as soon as one corrects, one had better be correcting back, because it's a lot of mass to start moving in one direction, and it tend to keep going. It also means that if one gets slow, one may not be able to get fast again; it's not nearly as easy to recover as it might be in a light airplane. In that respect, it's a little like flying an approach in a Cessna 150 on a hot day at high altitude with two big adults; one needs to plan ahead because the airplane doesn't have the performance to save you from a bad decision. It's all relative.
 
Airline pilots in general aren't doing much hand-flying or navigating while on the clock these days, but I don't know to what extent that has become a liability. I also know a few airline pilots who spend a lot of time flying bugsmashers and old-school heavy props, and they do just fine without the jet airliner "toys". They are among many, I'm sure.
 
A CFI friend who still owns a C-150 and teaches in it while flying 777s at his normal job, said...

"Maybe we ought to go back to teaching the kids in a J-3 for the basics first."

I get the feeling (that sentence is actually paraphrased and longer than his, he's a man of few words, but they're usually right) that he's saying there's not just a problem of forgetting... some of these folks never learned basic stick and rudder skills to a level necessary before they went to the glass/autopilot/fancy toys.

He has also been in Civil Air Patrol longer than I've been alive, and was the first to predict to me that a G1000 would kill a crew. Then two seasoned pilots in Arizona hit the only mountain for 1000 miles at their altitude in a G1000-equipped bird, at night.

While we properly and firmly place that error at the pilot's graves, we also know in the back of their heads they "felt safer" with the electronics on board.

Whether or not they'd have done it if they had to be more actively involved in the flightpath doing some VOR cross-checks and looking at a chart, is something we'll all never know.

We had chatted about his prediction for a while on the phone one night and he was more concerned about mountain searches... no one we know who knows how to properly and safely fly a mountain contour or canyon search is looking in the cockpit at all... or very little. Then we chatted again on the phone after it happened. All I had to say was, "Yep... you were right."
I think I know who you're talking about. Isn't he or wasn't he a DEN area DPE at some point?
 
I think I know who you're talking about. Isn't he or wasn't he a DEN area DPE at some point?
Unless he's a pretty small guy he isn't teaching in the Denver area in 150s. :)

Seems like we had a conversation about this the other night. I've taught in 152s here but I'm only 2/3 of a person.
 
Airline pilots in general aren't doing much hand-flying or navigating while on the clock these days, but I don't know to what extent that has become a liability.

I am not disagreeing with you, but seems like most of the airline pilots I personally know fly by hand "most of the time".
 
Most airlines want or require the autopilot engaged most of the time.
 
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