Aircraft unresponsive and heading out to sea

[overdrive148]

I did this for the Cirrus thread just a few days ago, but these were worth sharing (shaming?). I'm surprised that there were so many anti "1%" comments on this story when there were almost none on the Cirrus one.

ss 1 minute ago
what i do not understand...let us say the pilot took action and started to descend without permission...won't he run into other aircraft? this could cause more #$%$...seems like flying planes is associated with a lot of hassles, esp when things go wrong!!!!!!

Michael 11 minutes ago
The Filthy Rich 1% and all their Toys.

Dick 19 minutes ago
Now if the victims had been black, and they had been illegally shot by a cop, the media would be assassinating their character right now. But rich white folks get a free pass.

EXcuse 38 minutes ago
maybe they should of hired one of these brown people that work at mcDonalds that WANT $15/hr. to fly the plane ?

Mr. GTO 37 minutes ago
Socata TBM700 made in France... next time buy a Piper or Cessna made in the USA

The Lovely One Jones 43 minutes ago
We Christians can tell you that God murdered these couple because they were not Christians, as the article clearly indicates. They wanted to act like Christ and fly around in the skies. This made Christ angry because He is the ONLY one that has ascended to Heaven. Christ asked God the Father to MURDER these couple for spitting in His face. God the Father was happy to oblige the Christ and He MURDERED them for these crime. This is what happens to people that spit in the face of Christ. All Christians know of these truths.

Foamy Vomit 1 hour ago
When a one percenter dies, Jesus laughs.

StompK 1 hour ago
Maybe they flew through a chemtrail.

PetranoEsq 1 hour ago
I LOVE to see news stories about rich guys who die playing with their toys. This one is a doozy, b/c the guy was eaten by SHARKS.

Juan 1 hour ago
A couple of more rich folks on their way to hell.

Joe 1 hour ago
Whoopy two top elite 1 percenters die...... gee tomorrow is another day.....move on......

Jack 1 hour ago
how can private flying be legal when this could occur!...so me, on the ground, building a deck on my day off, could be killed by some*******passed-outin his private plane...how did these aviation laws ever get passed...I mean driving a car without a seatbelt is SOFKNG dangerous that I must be regularly fined for it...but private flying is somehow deemed safe...lmao...lol...pfft!...money makes the laws in America...and that will eventually lead to the fall...

America 1 - Illegals 0 2 hours ago
Such a sweet PROGRESSIE Sendoff by a LibTard Orgasimation !! AP, you ROCK, Yahooters, Thanks a million for posting such a wonderful progressie news story about how Sen. Chucky Duckie Shmucker is heartbroken over the loss of such a great LibTard community orasgmizers.
Kinda makes you wonder how nice AP & Yahooters would memorialize a CONSERVATIVE ?
AHs....

Steve 2 hours ago
If hypoxia is determined to have been the issue (we may never know for certain) perhaps the on board oxygen tanks had gotten contaminated in some way or were filled with the wrong gas, maybe even just compressed air.

Commenter 2 hours ago
Its our Government... They are PLAYING again...Don't know why Obama would want them dead..But all they do is take control of craft by remote...all planes have remotes since they crashed a couple of planes into towers..then blew up the towers..They have made a few planes DISAPPEAR or crash...Then they make up terrific STORIES and we may never know the truth.....

EXcuse 2 hours ago
windows were "frosted-over" ....... don`t they have heaters/defrosters in planes ?

Briana M 2 hours ago
I believe that all the recent plane wrecks are a direct result of man made climate change

jack 2 hours ago
I am sorry for the family's lose . I just wonder why autopilot electronics cannot check by radar for other planes in the vicinity and drop the planes altitude in an emergency. Maybe some of our engineers could work on that instead of planing a trip to Mars.

Panama Joe 2 hours ago
They must have been CRAZY rich (or not) in order to have that plane! That's a beauty, and very powerful. Crazy rich people get bumped off all the time by not-so-rich crazy people. It's a shame. So it goes. Po-tweet?

Wimpy 2 hours ago
1%ers indulging themselves and doing what 1%ers do.....next?

Terrible 6 hours ago
They could have been having a wild sex in the cockpit. While climaxing, the lady probably hit the cockpit auto-window switch and depressurized the plane. Black box will most likely confirm this theory.

Make sure to exercise caution when you 1%ers are out there flying about, especially while having a wild sex.

 

[Zeldman]

I did this for the Cirrus thread just a few days ago, but these were worth sharing (shaming?). I'm surprised that there were so many anti "1%" comments on this story when there were almost none on the Cirrus one.

Make sure to exercise caution when you 1%ers are out there flying about, especially while having a wild sex.

Wow... so I am a 1%er now? Cool.!!!

Sadly, the people that make comments like OD posted above are allowed to vote. You can't fix stupid.

 

[PaulS]

Wow... so I am a 1%er now? Cool.!!!

Sadly, the people that make comments like OD posted above are allowed to vote. You can't fix stupid.

Actually if you can afford to fly an airplane, and especially afford to own, you are closer than most folks.....

 

[peppy]

The plane had a glass cockpit and a digital autopilot. Why don't more planes do this:

http://cirrusengineering.blogspot.com/2011/01/hypoxia-prevention-and-automatic.html

It seems to me this would have save the two people on board.

 

[TriGear28]

In regard to the almost comical tone of the %1ers rants... I can only hope these people live in a state that prohibits felons from voting. Bc a lot of those people are or will be one some day I would wager.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MooneyDriver78]

The plane had a glass cockpit and a digital autopilot. Why don't more planes do this:

http://cirrusengineering.blogspot.com/2011/01/hypoxia-prevention-and-automatic.html

It seems to me this would have save the two people on board.

Maybe not, this plane has Oxygen and warnings for low pressure, but it was a new plane, from the comments on the ATC, he indicates there was a problem with the instruments, not that he lost cabin pressure, it's possible the plane had a problem with cabin pressure sensor so it wasn't obvious what the problem was. Like a new car sometimes everything there are manufacturing defects.

 

[3393RP]

It would depend on how long and high they were. If exposed to severe hypoxia long enough, they will be brain dead before they come down. From lower if they don't end up in a graveyard spiral, they may wake up in time to ditch, and properly equipped with floatation and a 406PLB, some die markers, smoke and flares, and a mirror, have a decent chance of rescue.

The whole spectrum in between is possible as well. Just depends on how long and how severely the brain was starved of oxygen, so yes, it's possible to wake up and realize, "Oh, it's time to die."

I extensively read about and research the WWII operations of the Eighth Air Force. I'm sure everyone knows operations above 20,000' were common.

Stories of crewmembers losing their oxygen supply are ubiquitous. The ball and tail gunners were at the most risk because of their isolation from the rest of the crew.

When this happened at altitudes above 25,000', it didn't take long for bad things to take place. Using a broad generalization, it appears that loss of consciousness took just a minute or two, and death from oxygen deprivation could occur in as little as 4 to 7 minutes.

However, in rare instances, crew members were unconscious for more than ten minutes and application of oxygen revived them with no lasting after effects. Individual responses varied, as Henning suggested.

While occurrences of pressurization system failures are rare, these events raise the question why there isn't an automated response, particularly in a newly built and complex aircraft like the TBM900. While not even close in terms of loss, this recalls the MH370 event and the post accident questions about why automated aircraft position reporting isn't universal.

Regardless of the reasons for the crash, as in all fatal aircraft incidents the loss of life is tragic. My condolences to the family and friends of the victims, they have to deal with the loss while fending off the intrusive media circus that accompanies high profile accidents.

 

[peppy]

Maybe not, this plane has Oxygen and warnings for low pressure, but it was a new plane, from the comments on the ATC, he indicates there was a problem with the instruments, not that he lost cabin pressure, it's possible the plane had a problem with cabin pressure sensor so it wasn't obvious what the problem was. Like a new car sometimes everything there are manufacturing defects.

I guess if you tie it into a pressure sensor but the Cirrus system is more simplistic. It looks for pilot activity and descends when there isn't a response. Either way the hard part lis done. Adding it to a glass cockpit with a digital AP shouldn't be much of a cost adder.

 

[Henning]

Granted. My point (or question) was why didn't he start down immediately at the first indication of a problem, rather than vacating 280 for 250...and still looking for lower. Once hypoxic, good decision-making skills vanish; which is why initiating the emergency descent with whatever shreds of wits remain would, arguably, be the most prudent course of action. In a way, I wonder why the controller didn't prompt for the nature of the problem; it's possible he could have made the decision easier for the pilot. Of course, the pilot never declared an emergency, which is his responsibility. What we don't know is the interval between the onset of the problem and his request to descend...if it was awhile, hypoxic impairment is likely, but he sounded OK on the initial request. Wouldn't you say?

You don't notice right away, you don't notice until you can't see straight anymore, and at least for me, that's long before I start slurring. That's the main issue with hypoxia, it's such a pleasant slow degradation of ability. By the time I can't see straight, I haven't been able to think straight for a long time. If you get a chance riding with some at even 18,000', especially at night, take off your O2 for five minutes, then when over a nice lighted area put your O2 on. Within a few breaths you will see the difference.

 

[timwinters]

It's this 24/7 cable news cycle. They feel compelled to report things in excessive detail and keep talking on and on even when they have no more information.

Meh, some American in the Mid East will get his head chopped off, or a kardasian will show some nip by accident, and this crash will be long forgotten by the media.

And here, there will be another thread on an aircraft incident that the gods of all things aviation and speculation will invade and thus forget all about this one.

What's that you say? It's already happening over at the "fire over the sound" thread?

Hmmm...let me check.

By god you're right, it is! Only twelve posts in...

 

[jetrep]

I recall an experience or two when messing around with the autopilot in a 172 (I had no autopilot training) that some settings would cause the plane to pitch up significantly. If I did not intervene it sure seemed like it would put the plane into a stall.

In the situation with plane in this incident...what does the autopilot do when the airplane runs out of fuel? I would assume it would try to maintain altitude, resulting in a stall and then a spin.

 

[Lord Muck]

I recall an experience or two when messing around with the autopilot in a 172 (I had no autopilot training) that some settings would cause the plane to pitch up significantly. If I did not intervene it sure seemed like it would put the plane into a stall.

In the situation with plane in this incident...what does the autopilot do when the airplane runs out of fuel? I would assume it would try to maintain altitude, resulting in a stall and then a spin.

This plane had the GFC700... That will try to keep the plane flying level as the speed bleeds off then it will disconnect at a certain minimum IAS. I would guess at that point the plane will slowly start descending. At that point without any further control inputs, the final outcome would depend on external factors, how bumpy it is, how easily the flying surfaces are moved around, etc.

 

[Lord Muck]

Granted. My point (or question) was why didn't he start down immediately at the first indication of a problem, rather than vacating 280 for 250...and still looking for lower. Once hypoxic, good decision-making skills vanish;

He may have already been hypoxic with diminished judgement when he made that first call. We shouldn't assume he was not.

 

[Everskyward]

wasn't assuming anything. I simply question why his "first call" wasn't the anouncement of an emergency descent rather than what appears to have been waiting for something to the convenience of the controller. Numerous others, with flight-level experience and training have posted the drill: oxygen on, start down, talk to ATC. Lingering in the flight levels in a depressurized ( or depressurizing) plane is probably incompatible with survival. Absence of an oxygen system makes an emergency descent even more urgent. So the effects of hypoxia appear gradually, what steps should a high-altitude pilot be taking to monitor for this? I don't want to sound contentious, but was there any explanation other than "pilot error?"

The answer is, "We don't know why he did what he did and we will never know." People can make educated guesses but that's all they are.

 

[47PILOT]

I think the one thing that can be safely extrapolated from this sad event is that if it happened to him, it could happen to any one of us. If your brain isn't telling your body that there is a serious issue at hand, the results most likely won't be favorable.
The key obviously is to recognize the symptoms before its to late

 

[Henning]

He may have already been hypoxic with diminished judgement when he made that first call. We shouldn't assume he was not.

I assume he was.

 

[Henning]

wasn't assuming anything. I simply question why his "first call" wasn't the anouncement of an emergency descent rather than what appears to have been waiting for something to the convenience of the controller. Numerous others, with flight-level experience and training have posted the drill: oxygen on, start down, talk to ATC. Lingering in the flight levels in a depressurized ( or depressurizing) plane is probably incompatible with survival. Absence of an oxygen system makes an emergency descent even more urgent. So the effects of hypoxia appear gradually, what steps should a high-altitude pilot be taking to monitor for this? I don't want to sound contentious, but was there any explanation other than "pilot error?"
I generally avoid high-altitude operations in light aircraft because the performance gains come at a high price in terms of complexity and systems required to do it safely (NB: oxygen, oximeter, etc.).

The answer is most likely that he was already hypoxic and not thinking well. I don't know if you've ever been there, but it's interesting because once clear of hypoxia you still remember what you did how poorly you functioned without realizing it. His first call had many reminiscent features to me.

Drills are easy to remember here, and I'm sure he knew the drill, his mind just wasn't bringing it up.

 

[Everskyward]

If anyone has a written procedure for loss of cabin pressure that doesn't begin with an immediate descent, I'd love to see it; I can be convinced if I'm wrong.

Actually the first step is always putting on your O2 mask. This is supposed to be done before starting the descent. As to why the pilot didn't do these things, I don't think we will ever know. Just because someone is well-trained doesn't mean they will take the correct action 100% of the time.

 

[Henning]

So, now I'm to believe that hypoxia is an assumed risk for anyone flying or riding in an aircraft ? Of course it is! That is why heavy-iron types train to recognize developing emergencies and implement positive corrective steps without delay to control them. I am saddened at the loss of an airman (and his wife), but that doesn't eliminate a review of the factual knowledge we have for the benefit of other aviators. What I heard on the ATC recording was not a series of swift, positive control actions in response to an emergency. If my criticism seems harsh, it is not intended to be so...it is just another instance of trying to learn from the mistakes of others so that our aviation careers are as safe as we can possibly make them. We are blessed as pilots to have that responsibility.

As for the point of "having been there," I had access to a high-altitude chamber as a graduate student at a prominent university. Without any grandiosity or disclosure of off-record experiences, I will say I know there is a moment when things are just not right, and shortly after they become very wrong. That's the cross-check of one's status (supported by whatever instrumentation available) that I maintain is a very high priority for an operation in the flight levels. To me, it's like driving over-tired: we know when we should pull-off and nap for a while, and it's our responsibility to do so. Believe me, if I'm at FL280 and I start to feel uncomfortable, I'll be starting down. Period. I want to be in a safe place to sort it out; not waiting for clearance, etc. An emergency is an emergency and it must be managed as such. If anyone has a written procedure for loss of cabin pressure that doesn't begin with an immediate descent, I'd love to see it; I can be convinced if I'm wrong.

Also, iHenning, thanks for your discussion on nitrogen narcosis: interesting physiology, but I'm not aware of anyone getting bent from explosive decompression (unless one loses pressure above "Armstrong's line," the pressure altitude where blood boils at body temperature...but we're not talking nitrogen bubbles/emboli there, really). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that bends require at least 1 atm of "overpressure" which is suddenly released. If I recall, divers operating at less than 30 feet below the surface can ascend without restriction without risk of getting bent. Deeper than that, a diver must follow the "tables" to relieve the compressed nitrogen from tissues at rest stops.

Blessings

It was interesting when we were playing with the Doppler stethoscope, you hear bubbles with as little as 20 minutes at 10 ft, however they are tiny and produce no symptoms whatsoever. The problem with all dive tables and most algorithms used for decompression are developed from the tissue models the US Navy compiled using prime physical condition, low fat soldier/divers at a nice young age. There is a lot of individual differences as we found when developing personalized tables.

The long and short of it is there is a reason the military has their high altitude jumpers purge 2hrs on O2 before boarding for a HALO jump, the risk is real.