Aircraft recommendation for 200-300 nm business trips with easy access for dogs

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Tummler

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Tummler
We have decided to expand our business to a second and third location. One is 200 nm trip and the other is a 260 nm. Most of the business trips will consist of me (220 lbs), my wife (110 lbs), our two 70 lb dogs, and 100-200 lbs of cargo. We will make this trip several times a week. In 3 to 5 years, we may add another location that would require a 500 nm trip, but given the time frame and the uncertainty, I don't believe it would be wise to place much if any emphasis on that possible requirement at this time. All flying would be in the Midwest.

If at all possible, we would like to keep our initial expenditure below $150k and closer to $125k if at all possible. At those prices, we would retain sufficient reserves to address most matters promptly.

I am about half-way through PPL training and hope to wrap it up in the next month or two. I plan to keep going straight through and obtain IFR certification. If we can take 50% bonus depreciation for purchases of used aircraft in 2015, buying our own plane would be easy to justify.

I am a big subscriber of the notion of increased safety by way of reducing workload demands, and this plane will be flown in IMC regularly. As such, updated avionics with WAAS and incorporation with the A/P is high on my list of priorities. Given everything I have read on here and from my research of plane prices and the cost of upgrading avionics, I have concluded that if I want updated avionics, I need to buy a plane that has already been updated.

The easy answer would be a Bo with wingtip tanks. That would satisfy all of our requirements, including the future 500 nm mission, but a good Bo with moderate engine time and updated avionics is out of our price range.

Next up would be an older 182 with updated avionics, but from my limited research, the Navomatics, even if linked to updated avionics, likely will not meet my requirements of dependable, precise operation in IMC (I admit I am not an expert on avionics). This would lead me to believe that the A/P must also be updated. When limiting my search to 182s with updated avionics and A/Ps, I seem to be bumping up against the top end of my budget.

Am I off-base in my assessment of the market for Bos and 182s? I am willing to concede this may be the case. Any other planes I should be considering?
 
Lance
A36
/thread
;-)
 
Better check the W/B on the 182 also. Dunno if that would fit the bill with the dogs + cargo + full tanks for the trip
 
Oh, where are you located ? Doing a trip several times a week is a tall order, you are going to need two aircraft, or an agreement that gives you access to another plane.
 
Dog access and loading is easier than you think. I've seen a large pack of pups loaded into a Colorado bound Turbo Dakota with a bit of creative figuring. And I've had a very large Saint Bernard easily jump in a C182 through the baggage door and be very happy during the flight. If you need to constrain them, the soft side kennels are available in various sizes and work well in aircraft.

So that part of your criteria is an easy thing to solve.

Besides the dogs and bags, you haven't mentioned the remainder of the loadout.
 
JCranford said:
Better check the W/B on the 182 also. Dunno if that would fit the bill with the dogs + cargo + full tanks for the trip
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Given our flight profile, I don't see much of a need for filling the tanks.

AggieMike88 said:
Besides the dogs and bags, you haven't mentioned the remainder of the loadout.
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Two passengers (330 lbs) and 100-200lbs for baggage and materials relating to the business.

I didn't think the dogs would have much of an issue with a 182, but I could see it getting old loading dogs when they have to step on a wing.
 
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200lb cargo (unless you are in the anvil business, this is quite some volume
140lb dogmeat
330lb human meat
360lb fuel

You are going to run out of cubes before you run out of useful load. 200lb cargo is a pallet of duffle bags or peli boxes. If you like your back, you want to load this through Lance/A36/U206 style doors.
 
weilke said:
200lb cargo (unless you are in the anvil business, this is quite some volume
140lb dogmeat
330lb human meat
360lb fuel

You are going to run out of cubes before you run out of useful load. 200lb cargo is a pallet of duffle bags or peli boxes. If you like your back, you want to load this through Lance/A36/U206 style doors.
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200 lbs is a worst case scenario, but it is conceivable. The locations are retail stores, and it would be nice to be able to load up with product and overnight bags without having to sweat every pound.
 
I flew my Archer with
365lbs of human
~115lbs of dogs + crates
~100lbs of baggage, dog supplies, and Christmas presents.
288lbs fuel(4.8hrs worth)

Weight wasn't the problem, I was well under gross. Space was the problem.. those dog crates take up a lot of room. I had a heck of a time finding places to stuff everything. The other problem related to dog crates was getting them in the door. The one door on a PA-28 doesn't lend it's self to loading bulky items. I wouldn't want to do this often... but it can be done.
 
cowman said:
Space was the problem.. those dog crates take up a lot of room.
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Interesting. I was planning on letting them sleep on the back seats. I realize from a safety perspective, this might not be the best move, but before now, I had not given much thought to the safety considerations of such an arrangement.
 
My dogs are snugglers. This includes the 60lb german shorthair who likes to crawl into my wife's lap when we drive.

It doesn't take much imagination to see why that might be a bad bad thing in an airplane.
 
You might look into Yorkshires, ****zus, French Bulldogs, and similar.


haha.... POA edits the dog if the first letters are S - h- i- t-
 
Tummler said:
Interesting. I was planning on letting them sleep on the back seats. I realize from a safety perspective, this might not be the best move, but before now, I had not given much thought to the safety considerations of such an arrangement.
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If they sleep comfortably and securely in the back seat of your car (with minimum fuss and excitement) they are likely to do that in an airplane.

For safety/security, obtain a harness for them and one of the nifty accessories that secures the harness to the seatbelt. This provides them room to shift positions, but keeps them from moving forward to sit in your lap.
 
I have a very similar mission profile, similar wife ;), and I have a Lance. Love it!
 
I HATE to say this - because it sounds like I'm pimping but a Comanche works too -

late model, B or C -
with the C you get 900# of full mains fuel payload. And you can put 225# in the back, pull the seats and build a dog pallet with plywood and snuggie boxes with holes for the seat belts [and buy the dog body harnesses and USE then]

And the PA24 has no real world problems with W&B with that load and full main fuel of 56 gallons.

I ran the W&B and with"
200lb cargo
140lb canine
330lb human
330lb fuel

You are at 3004# - which is even under max landing weight of 3040 and almost 200# under max gross of 3200#. So if someone went wrong you could land right away safely. Moreover, you can pick up an airplane with good avionics and mid time engine for less than $110,000 . . . . when they are for sale, which is pretty rare.

And the Lance and Saratoga are simply the follow on to the Comanche - the Comanche 'cargo' door is pretty small.
 
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ahkahn said:
I have a very similar mission profile, similar wife ;), and I have a Lance. Love it!
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I have been reading up on Lances, and it looks ideal. I have not had much exposure to Pipers, so it was completely off my radar before this thread.

How are values for Lances' trending?

How do they compare to A36s? The only reason I ask this is because I have ridden in a couple A36s.
 
JoseCuervo said:
You might look into Yorkshires, ****zus, French Bulldogs, and similar.


haha.... POA edits the dog if the first letters are S - h- i- t-
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Helps if you spell it right, because it's spelled Shih Tzu.
 
AggieMike88 said:
If they sleep comfortably and securely in the back seat of your car (with minimum fuss and excitement) they are likely to do that in an airplane.

For safety/security, obtain a harness for them and one of the nifty accessories that secures the harness to the seatbelt. This provides them room to shift positions, but keeps them from moving forward to sit in your lap.
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My dog would have the airplane's seat belt cut in two and be in someone's lap before we left the pattern.
 
Tummler said:
I am about half-way through PPL training and hope to wrap it up in the next month or two. I plan to keep going straight through and obtain IFR certification. If we can take 50% bonus depreciation for purchases of used aircraft in 2015, buying our own plane would be easy to justify.
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I thought Bonus depreciation was only on new aircraft?
 
Tummler said:
I have been reading up on Lances, and it looks ideal. I have not had much exposure to Pipers, so it was completely off my radar before this thread.

How are values for Lances' trending?

How do they compare to A36s? The only reason I ask this is because I have ridden in a couple A36s.
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Values seem to be holding, if not trending slightly upward. You can get an even better deal on a T-Tail, but every airport a**hole will tell you how they're death traps. They're not, just different to fly. Mine is a straight-tail (like a Saratoga). The only major difference between Lance and the Saratoga is the hershey-bar wing versus the tapered wing... otherwise same fuselage, tail, engine, cabin, etc.

I would strongly suggest one with the speed mods - The LoPresti cowl, etc. Looking at the performance of the A36, which I'm not very familiar with, the Lance with speed mods will perform very similarly to the A36. Lance holds more fuel, more range, 16gph on 94gal @ ~165ktas. It's VERY roomy and has about 1400# useful load.

I hope this helps!
 
Mike5250 said:
I thought Bonus depreciation was only on new aircraft?
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Damn, looks like you are correct. I looked into this a couple years ago, and at that time, you could take a substantial amount of the purchase price of a used aircraft as a section 179 expense.
 
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Tummler said:
200 lbs is a worst case scenario, but it is conceivable. The locations are retail stores, and it would be nice to be able to load up with product and overnight bags without having to sweat every pound.
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How is your cargo packaged ? Boxes ? Racked wedding dresses ? Does money cost you money or can you get the tax man to buy you a plane ?

Couple of thoughts:
- Unless your retail cargo is time critical, you may find that shipping is much cheaper than buying a bigger plane just to accomodate your merchandise.
- You mentioned 'several times per week'. Your dogs will either love it or hate it. If they hate it, you wont need a big boat to accomodate cargo and dogs.
- You are going to fly 1000nm/wk 4000nm/month and 48,000/year. A difference in operating cost of 40c/nm is going to make a $14,400 difference in cost. Now all of that is pre-tax money, still given the mileage you are going to put on this thing, you really have to keep an eye on your operating expenses.


Look if you can find a Lance that you can lease for 6 months until you figure out how realistic this all is. You may find that a M20J or a SR20 can do your actual mission at a lower cost.
 
Mooneys are hard to beat when it comes to both speed and efficiency. Your budget will get a good F or early J; look for speeds 150-155 knots on 8.5-10 gph, and useful loads of 950-1050 depending on equipment.

My C is almost a foot shorter and 10-15 knots slower, and runs out of cube well before useful load (unless hauling books or ammunition). $100K will buy a tricked out, pimped out M20-C, then pay insurance, hangar, maint & fuel for several years.

Happy hunting! Remember: test fly all of them, get your wife's approval and get a pre-purchase inspection from someone familiar with the brand but not involved in its previous maintenance. Then get some training from a type expert.

Just remember to have fun in the process.
 
You will definitely want a FIKI airplane if you plan on flying this trip several times per week or you could be sitting on the ground a lot during the winter. Maybe a Cessna 210?
 
You also do not want to be operating at gross weight on every since flight - since you have no room for anything above that - such as needing to bring someone else with you.

This weight under gross will help in summer as well. Keep that in mind.

Comanche, Bonanza, Lance, Toga, maybe a C210. or even a 205.
 
I have exactly the same mission except 650NM, even the two 70lb. dogs. You also have to consider all of the baggage that comes with that size group. Just my dog food for a trip is 60-80lbs. The other thing is interior space not just useful load. I have a 206, but an A36, Toga, 210, any twin, etc. would work out great also. I also like the heaviest most stable aircraft possible in IMC. Flying with the WHOLE family is a lot of fun, that's one of the biggest reasons we have a plane.
 
You had it right in the first post: Bo A36. And nice examp,es can be had for less than $150K. Two students of mine both bought nice ones in the $110-130 range.

A Six would be pretty slow when flying it that often.
 
Older A36 is what I was thinking, too.

Regarding depreciation, I am not an accountant, but I think you can do 7 year straight line or MACRS. If I understand correctly, MACRS is not quite as good as bonus, but you will be able to depreciate more than 50% of a 7 year by the third year.
 
Even notice the answers to these "which plane" questions tend to almost always be whatever plane the responding poster owns?

"I have a 300lb wife, and I weigh 400lbs, and have 2 250lbs kids, what plane should I get?"
"A Mooney but make sure it's the short C body"
"RV-8"
"Cri-Cri"

Where is this dumb water people keep drinking?
 
Tummler said:
That's an interesting recommendation that was completely off my radar. Any particular reason to go with a Cardinal over a 182 besides price?
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Larger doors, lower floor for loading, really cool looks
 
EdFred said:
Even notice the answers to these "which plane" questions tend to almost always be whatever plane the responding poster owns?

"I have a 300lb wife, and I weigh 400lbs, and have 2 250lbs kids, what plane should I get?"
"A Mooney but make sure it's the short C body"
"RV-8"
"Cri-Cri"

Where is this dumb water people keep drinking?
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Probably because for some of us it's all we know...
 
550ed Cessna 210

Or if you can handle going slower, get a 550ed U206 with the big tail and the rear split door for loading.
 
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James331 said:
550ed Cessna 210

Or if you can handle going slower, get a 550ed U206 with the big tail and the rear split door for loading.
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I was dead set on a Cessna 210 at one point. I went so far as to contact a broker known for repping 210s, but after doing my research (much of which was done here), I am convinced 210s are "dead planes flying" due to the expense of certain parts for the landing gear that are almost guaranteed to fail at some point.
 
Everything I've read about them makes me think I don't want a retractable gear Cessna.
 
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