Aircraft choices - and a POA connection

[gkainz]

Should have my BFR - ok, new change - "Flight Review" done in the next couple of days, and I've been pondering aircraft choices. The club I'm at now has Skyhawks, a Skylane, Cirri (couple SR-20 and a SR-22) and an Arrow.

Here's the POA connection - the Arrow N3509M shows up as previously owned by a POA boarder. Hmmm, now this is weird - a google search last night on 3509M pointed to a POA thread - something like 'airplanes you've owned', but a board search for 3509M results in no hits.
from google search: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...QinBZ_MrqRdFgXtcQ&sig2=EvTuXSdXb5PxlE75_lidUw


Anyway, the current club/school Skyhawks are $95 wet and the Arrow is $135 wet. Cirri are out of my price range regardless of the rate (which I don't recall now except "too high for me."

I'm calling today (note to self - DO IT) to get on a waiting list of a member/owner club with 3 planes; an Archer, a Bonanza and a Saratoga, which rent for $44, $70 and $70 dry.

So, help me with the cost analysis comparisons? Besides factoring in fuel costs to the dry rate to get a more balanced comparison, what else should I consider?

 

[Bob Bement]

How much an hour for the club 182?

 

[gkainz]

Club 182RG is $165
172N models are $95, while SP models are $118

 

[CJones]

Check plane availability between the two groups. $44/hr for an Archer seems REALLY nice, unless it is VFR only and is always taken by someone else. The 'toga also sounds like a pretty good deal, depending on its condition. I rent a 182RG for $120 (wet) here, and that is by far the BEST deal I have found for a rental. I used to be able to get a 177RG for $76 (wet) through my old club, but even it has jumped to over $90 nowadays.

Also, I would take some time to meet up with the management of the club. We had a couple of retired guys in our club that considered the planes 'their' planes and were using the management of the club as their post-career soap box. Made things difficult for everyone involved.

Also, a big thing to consider would be the annual or monthly 'dues' compared to how much you actually plan to fly. There is a nice club here in DesMoines with two Archers and two Mooney's that are available for reasonable rates, but paying the monthly dues for the amount of flying I would do in a year make it cost prohibitive for me at this point. Sure, you might be getting an Archer for $44/hr, but if you're paying $1200/year for the 'opportunity' to fly, and you only fly 20 hrs/year, now you're paying $104/hr for that Archer.

 

[gkainz]

My neighbor is a long time member of the ownership club (the Archer, Bo and 'toga) so I've been talking with him and hearing about the club for years. I got on the list a couple of years ago but withdrew when I had to focus my attention away from flying for a while. From their website

"Our purpose is to provide affordable pleasure flying opportunities in quality aircraft for 45 member-owners. We are flying a 1977 Archer (PA28-181), a 1980 Bonanza (F33A), and a 1988 Saratoga (PA32R-301) for dry rates of $44, $70, and $70 per hour, respectively. All three are well maintained, IFR equipped..."

There is a "share" buy-in, transferrable if one chooses to leave the club. The monthly dues convert into flying hours, and buy 4+ hrs/month of Archer time or a little less than 3hrs of Bo/'Toga time, which fits my plans and budget.

The Archer is considerably more available than the Bo and Toga, I'm told, which also fits ok with my desires. My flying would be mostly solo 500nm weekend round trips, and occasional "nice day, bore holes in the local sky" jaunts.

At the school/club, the Arrow is considerably more available than the Skyhawks, as the latter are fully engaged in primary training. This club has a 3 hr/day minimum rental for XC, but I'm hoping I can get them to waive that and just bill actual hrs on my weekend trips due to less demand on the Arrow. Prior places I've been have agreed to this for a 172RG and a Mooney 201, as they were not primary trainers.

I really miss that Mooney, especially at $90/hr wet.

 

[Ted]

One of the things I'd look at is what avionics the planes have. Specifically, if it fits what you need. I'm not saying that a 530/430 makes a plane fly any better than a single KX170 with no glide slope, but the latter is kinda annoying if you want to do instrument flying. If you don't, it probably doesn't matter and you can ignore this, but at least having a VFR GPS is really nice for XCs. Of course, a 496 is a nice substitute for a VFR GPS.

What I do with a dry rate is try to turn it into an equivalent wet rate. So, your $44/hour dry in the Archer will probably be closer to about $90/hour wet, depending on how you fly it. You then may be encouraged to run an economy cruise to save a few gph, bringing you down to, say $80/hour, but going slower. Figure out your $/mile here (and I'd compare it to the other planes) to see what ends up being the cheapest per mile, assuming no winds (winds screw things up). This includes monthly dues and expected hours per month.

Availability and maintenance are two other things I'd consider - if one place has a habit of not maintaining their planes very well, it may be worth considering whether or not you want to fly those planes. Availability is a concern. All the planes I fly have high availability, which works out well, but the one time you can't fly because someone else has the plane sure gets annoying.

It sounds to me like the second club with the Archer, Bonanza, and Saratoga has the better deal out of the two. My guess is the Archer is a hair cheaper than the Skyhawks per hour, and the Bonanza and Saratoga end up being about the same as the Arrow per hour, for nicer planes.

 

[Ghery]

As a comparison point (YMMV), our club has the following data points -

Membership capped at 50 (and usually full). Monthly dues are $68 with $15 credited if you fly that month.

4 aircraft. PA-28R-200 (1969 model) for $96/hr wet. 1974 C-182P for $100/hr wet. 1976 C-172N (180 hp Penn Yan conversion) for $76/hr wet. 1968 C-172H for "I can't remember", but it's less than the 172N. The Arrow has a non-IFR GPS. The 172N has a Garmin 430 in the panel. The 182P is straight steam guages. The 172H is non-IFR, our VFR pattern beater (but someone took it across the state a while back, that must have been painful it is so slow!).

An annual checkout by an instructor is required. Any plane, it doesn't matter. I often combine that with the FAA flight review. The only other recurring requirement is for the Arrow. You must fly it at least 3 hours in a 180 day period, or you have to have a CFI sign you off again. Insurance requirement. No IR required for the Arrow, just 100 hour TT and 10 hours dual if no previous make/model experience. I haven't flown it in a year and a half, so I'll have to get signed off again if I want to use it. Was doing my IR work in the 182 (more comfortable than the Arrow, anyway, and just as fast).

Aircraft are reasonably well maintained. Stuff gets fixed if it breaks. Stuff gets updated when needed (new interior in the Arrow a couple years ago, new seats in the 172N recently (I haven't seen them, but they were needed). The 430 replaced a failing radio and was a nice upgrade. Some of us fronted the money for it and were repaid over a period of time with reduced rates.

If you can find a club as well run as ours you'll be in good shape.

 

[alaskaflyer]

Archer, a Bonanza and a Saratoga, which rent for $44, $70 and $70 dry.

So, help me with the cost analysis comparisons? Besides factoring in fuel costs to the dry rate to get a more balanced comparison, what else should I consider?

I would think that joining the club that has a six-seat IFR plane available would be advantageous, regardless of cost comparisons.

 

[sba55]

I would think that joining the club that has a six-seat IFR plane available would be advantageous, regardless of cost comparisons.

Agreed. Having access to 2 six-seaters makes a difference, even if you don't need 6 seats 90% of the time. Also, if the Cirri are out of your price range, you're looking at access to a couple of 130 knot airplanes vs. 170 knots with the Bonanza. And, lastly, $70 dry is a heck of a deal....

-Felix