Aircraft buying tips...

fiveoboy01

fiveoboy01

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I am currently just looking around but will be definitely buying something this spring. Narrowed to a 180HP 172 or an Archer/Cherokee 180.

General tips and suggestions for buying? Not sure if I need/should use a broker. I don't like car salesman, and I'm not sure I'd like a broker either. if it's a necessary evil I'd pay for one, but I don't like the idea if I don't need it.

This is all pretty new to me and there are so many choices and varieties out there, it's hard to know exactly what to look for and what steps to take in order to not screw myself:D
 
Plenty to read regarding escrow and title search such as in this thread:
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66872

I have never used escrow or paid for a title search on any of the 3 aircraft I have owned.

It is a good idea to take your mechanic or pay for a mechanic other than the sellers mechanic to evaluate the plane. Caution is advised depending on possible motives of the parties involved: I have observed a mechanic advise his newbie pilot against buying a good an inexpensive 150 because it would take too long (and cost too much) to get the logbooks into a format he was happy with. Of course if the newbie pilot bought a plane, the mechanic would loose a renter for the 152 owned by the mechanic...
 
Buying now instead of waiting til spring could get you a better deal. Spring is when the market heats up with the new flying season and lower fuel prices.

Look for a plane where you can use or get an STC for mogas.
 
Fuel pices are going down,the market could start heating up. I liked to follow the trade publications,trade a plane ,controller,barnstormers,ASO.also check local airport bulletin boards. A good per buy by a mechanic you trust is a must. Good luck
 
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the one consistent thing I always hear is to get a good pre purchase inspection. It can more than pay for itself if the plane isn't as represented.
 
Best thing you can do is find someone you know and trust who's owned a few planes him/herself to mentor you through the process. In addition, find a mechanic you know and trust to assist you with review of the aircraft maintenance records of planes you're considering and a pre-purchase inspection of a plane on which you're making an offer. Finally, remember that there are a lot of aero-fish in this particular sea, and it's mostly a buyer's market these days, so take your time and don't feel compelled to grab any particular deal in a hurry.
 
rbridges said:
the one consistent thing I always hear is to get a good pre purchase inspection. It can more than pay for itself if the plane isn't as represented.
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In this regard, I've heard some good things about Mike Busch's SavvyMX pre-buy service.
 
It's all about the prebuy.

Haggling is up to you, it's also the fun part.

You can get all the title and 337s etc from the FAA on CD for a few bucks.
 
Join the type club, read everything, get a pre-buy checklist or develop your own, go see planes for sale and use the checklist-for those things on the list you can't do hire a mechanic-buy the one you like. that's how I did it and I'm happy with my plane after four years.
I am mixed on the "own mechanic" idea. Some folks say take along the mechanic that you will use to maintain it but I think if he misses something on the "pre-buy" he will miss it in the annuals. I like to have different eyes on my plane as people tend to concentrate on different things and so it all gets looked at.
 
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cgrab said:
Joint the type club,
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Strong agreement with this.

When I was thinking about purchasing a C177, I joined Cardinal Flyers Online and read all their materials and asked lots of questions. Some really good people in that group and I learned a ton.

I ended up joining a local club, but the C177 is still on my "if a really good one comes along at a killer price...." list.
 
If you haven't already, take you wife (or S.O.) along and go look at and sit in a few of the models you are considering. Visibility and ingress/egress varies a lot, as does things like getting in when it is raining, etc.

Also, while you want a good, solid airplane, keep in mind most of us are flying airplanes that are older or nearly as old as we are. Better, in my opinion, to get a good, solid airplane than one that has been recently painted, etc. to cover up things you might want to see.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Strong agreement with this.

When I was thinking about purchasing a C177, I joined Cardinal Flyers Online and read all their materials and asked lots of questions. Some really good people in that group and I learned a ton.

I ended up joining a local club, but the C177 is still on my "if a really good one comes along at a killer price...." list.
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I joined CFO also when I was looking at Cardinals. Wife talked me into the TR182 so we wouldn't have to compromise on fuel until our kids are grown.

My strong suggestion to the OP is make sure your pre-buy includes a good high-res bore scope inspection inside the engine.

The engine is the most expensive thing to repair and a good bore scope can detect cam and other problems that cause early overhauls.

Other advice: There are four things you can't undo: hours on the airframe, corrosion, damage history (even if repaired it lowers the value compared to an identical undamaged plane), and missing log books.

Not that you can't accept any of these, just know that they affect valuation.

I doubt a broker would make sense for a sub-$50k purchase. I used one and I was glad I did but I ended up with a TR182 rather than the C177 that I was originally looking at.
 
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AggieMike88 said:
In this regard, I've heard some good things about Mike Busch's SavvyMX pre-buy service.
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I would agree with this 100% they will also help review logs for you to avoid wasting time on the hidden losers out there.
 
message me: i am closing on a Cherokee 180 in 2 days and have learned a lot in the process. First plane, plenty of small mistakes. Hopefully not many more to come- we'll see how it turns out!
 
I just brought my new C182 home yesterday. I followed much of the advice i received here, as well as the forums on Cessna Pilots. I also purchased through a broker. I found the broker to be extremely helpful, honest, and responsive. The plane was as described, and well-cared for while in the broker's hangar. Unbeknownst to me, they even noticed a small problem with the JPI engine monitor and advised the seller that they were withholding money from the transaction to get it fixed. The broker ordered a title search and sent it to me (they advised they automatically do this on every plane they broker to avoid any problems). I can't imagine that every broker acts like this, but this one was top notch. I had previously responded to a number of ads in Barnstormers and I couldn't even solicit a response from sellers.
 
And think about this.....

If you WANT a GPS in the panel, buy a plane with it already installed. To install a 430w or 650, have at least $15k to play with to start.

And I subscribe to skipping what is called a prebuy and opt for the full annual inspection. Your check book may thank you later. Sure, a good prebuy will find issues. But an annual will find them all and you will have a legal clean bill of health.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
I am currently just looking around but will be definitely buying something this spring. Narrowed to a 180HP 172 or an Archer/Cherokee 180.

General tips and suggestions for buying? Not sure if I need/should use a broker. I don't like car salesman, and I'm not sure I'd like a broker either. if it's a necessary evil I'd pay for one, but I don't like the idea if I don't need it.

This is all pretty new to me and there are so many choices and varieties out there, it's hard to know exactly what to look for and what steps to take in order to not screw myself:D
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Find one that has had a hangar all its life, don't buy the cheapest one out there, buy the best one, it will be cheaper in the long run and a better all around experience.

if you are talking about buying through a broker that has a listing, remember, brokers have the listings because the people who have the planes have more time than money and dont want to be aggravated by their plane. Not a rule, but more often brokerage planes are the ones in better condition because these same personalities spend maintenance money to avoid aggravation. That's not to say all the good ones are with brokers, but a lot of them are, so excluding those sold through a broker could be a bad mistake. A good broker can help you convince the owner to accept a reasonable offer when they are being reasonable as well.

If you are talking about hiring a broker to be your buyer's agent to help you find a plane, that is more like dealing with a realtor than a car salesman, you pay them for their time studying the market and their expertise in the industry. Since Aircraft Broker is not a regulated job, the level of their expertise will vary greatly.
 
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Unit74 said:
And think about this.....

If you WANT a GPS in the panel, buy a plane with it already installed. To install a 430w or 650, have at least $15k to play with to start.

And I subscribe to skipping what is called a prebuy and opt for the full annual inspection. Your check book may thank you later. Sure, a good prebuy will find issues. But an annual will find them all and you will have a legal clean bill of health.
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+1 on the annual.

I've been in the process of buying a Lance for the last 8 weeks. Yes... 8 weeks. It's been in the shop for 6. Opted for the annual (my mechanic recommended) and after 2 days in the shop the mechanic begged me to walk away from the plane. He was going to button it all up and charge me half of the inspection cost... it was that bad. Corrosion, many AD's not performed (but signed off on!), and a 5 page laundry list of other things. The only things that are keeping me on this plane is that the owner genuinely has no idea the condition of his plane was this bad. I saw the invoices... he has been getting screwed by his mechanic for years. This plane has an Aspen PFD, every speed mod known to man, ADS-B ready, and a number of other upgrades. The engine also tested out at 79/80 across the board with 500 hours on it. It is a solid plane, just needs some TLC. The owner OK'd all of the repairs, and I'm still waiting on it. Looking like next week it will complete.

All of this because I opted for an annual. A pre-buy never would have uncovered any of these issues... in fact, a pre-buy would have left me with at $15,000 annual next year (and the potential for some serious safety issues in the interim).

I will always preach a pre-buy ANNUAL for anyone interested in purchasing a plane. It's peace of mind knowing you're flying a solid plane, and not only that, but you get a full year to enjoy your new toy before it goes back into the doctor's office!

[EDIT]: Ironically, the engine was so strong because the owner had it maintained by the same guys that overhauled it... a different shop.

-Andrew
 
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Sellers usually won't let buyers do an annual until after you bought it, so it's usually a prebuy and annual, this has to do with unairworty items
 
teejayevans said:
Sellers usually won't let buyers do an annual until after you bought it, so it's usually a prebuy and annual, this has to do with unairworty items
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I beg to differ. If a seller is serious about selling their plane, and they're confident that it is as advertised, they should have no problem with having the plane annual'd. I would briskly walk away from a plane that the seller refuses to allow an annual on.

Caveat: Unless the plane is unairworthy or has a serious problem that is clearly disclosed.

-Andrew
 
Be prepared to walk away even after you have invested time and money in your pre-buy. After several conversations, a thorough review of the logs and talks to the mechanic I flew from DC to Seattle to buy a plane and fly it home. After a good test flight the mechanic and I checked out the engine-great, the panel-great, but when i took down the headliner I found corrosion on the spar. I quizzed the mechanic who said he thought he checked it out but obviously didn't. I was on an American flight home the next day. About $1000 lost but I didn't buy a plane that would have cost me much more.
 
Not that I'm telling you what to do, but why a 180? Unless you're operating out of real short strips the 180 isn't going to do anything for you other than add cost. It will climb better but your high end speed isn't going to be much better. In either the 172 or the Cherokee you're still dragging that draggy airframe thorugh the sky.

If you do go for something more exotic (like the 177 or whatever), the type clubs as mentioned can provide tons of useful information.
 
Unit74 said:
And I subscribe to skipping what is called a prebuy and opt for the full annual inspection. Your check book may thank you later. Sure, a good prebuy will find issues. But an annual will find them all and you will have a legal clean bill of health.
Click to expand...

Often it is discussed that a thorough pre-buy has many of the same items on the list as a thorough annual. Biggest difference is the A&P/IA doing the work doesn't sign the logbook. Another difference is their is no obligation to repair an AW or AD item that is discovered.

If you do purchase the aircraft, then your A&P/IA can complete the list to make the pre-buy into an annual, sign the books, and you're on your way.
 
Simple way to do the pre-buy/annual is do exactly that, have the mechanic perform the pre-buy inspection as if it were an annual. If you buy it, it becomes an annual, if he finds any "show stoppers" along the way, you stop, button it back up and give the seller his keys.:D Sometimes we try to overthink this stuff.;)
With a simple airframe like a 172, he's going to check for AD's, look for corrosion, check compressions, inspect for damage etc within the first couple hours of the inspection whether you call it an annual or a pre-buy or a good once over. :D Usually he will find some needed repairs to make it airworthy that the seller usually pays for and some good to do things that the buyer may elect to have done and pay for. ;)
 
Bump.

I don't want to start 50 new threads(name isn't Ben), so I'll try to just add to this one.

Questions:

Who's used Savvy's prebuy service? A search reveals a little bit of info, most of it positive, and it sounds like they can help walk me through the buying process as well. Which, admittedly, I don't have much of a clue about. Selecting an airplane and how it's equipped is easy, even the price I'm willing to pay.. but the ins and outs of the actual process are somewhat foreign to me.

Initial thoughts on this airplane for anyone who would like to offer input?

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail...e+Piston/1972/Piper/Cherokee+180/2078644.html
 
fiveoboy01 said:
Initial thoughts on this airplane for anyone who would like to offer input?

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail...e+Piston/1972/Piper/Cherokee+180/2078644.html
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He went through the downtime and expense for a new engine just to turn around and sell within 6 months? Some Paul Harvey needs applying here to find out how quickly he needs cash back in his pocket.

Price appears to be a significant premium for the avionics and new engine. Essentially you're buying a motor, Aspen, and GTN and getting a free fuselage, seats, wings, tail feathers....

Good luck!
 
Short body fuse. Don't plan on hauling normal sized adults in the back. Not a lot of room.

Nice panel and engine. If the panel is what you want and the short fuse is ok for your needs throw him an offer.
 
I know about the shorter fuse. My preference is a taperwing Archer but I'm open to the candy bar Cherokee too. Probably not a LOT of times I'd haul anyone in back, but it might happen, so it is something I'm thinking about. The advanced panel is neat, however I am just a VFR pilot who aspires to an instrument rating, and an ipad and Stratus would also do well for most of what I'll be doing. The airplane I currently fly has dual glass panels and while it's cool, I also enjoy a 6 pack of steam gauges. Another candidate:

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail/aircraft/Single+Engine+Piston/1985/Piper/Archer+II/2078070.html
 
fiveoboy01 said:
I am currently just looking around but will be definitely buying something this spring. Narrowed to a 180HP 172 or an Archer/Cherokee 180.

General tips and suggestions for buying? Not sure if I need/should use a broker. I don't like car salesman, and I'm not sure I'd like a broker either. if it's a necessary evil I'd pay for one, but I don't like the idea if I don't need it.

This is all pretty new to me and there are so many choices and varieties out there, it's hard to know exactly what to look for and what steps to take in order to not screw myself:D
Click to expand...



I have bought only one airplane, so I'm no advice expert, but we bought ours from a private owner with no broker and things couldn't have worked out better.

The key is knowing if the airplane is very close to what the owner is representing it to be and if it's priced accordingly. Google and barnstormers are your friends for research.

Also, in TX, an individual to individual sale does not impose a sales tax provided the seller has not sold over one airplane in a year ... I THINK those are the rules on the seller's side .. don't hold me to that. It varies state to state. More research .. :wink2:
 
I will say, I found the purchase process somewhat frustrating overall. I am happy with the way things have worked out, but the experience is somewhat ... weird.

Suffice it to say, it's really hard to figure out if people really want to sell or not. I would say don't be afraid to move on. It's really weird to say, BUT DO NOT Fall in love. You will regret it. It seems like on T-A-P and Barnstormers etc, there are two sets of pricing "market" and those listings move pretty quick...and "fall in love" where you pay over VREF but it's what you "want" and so you pay the premium. If you're willing to pay the premium go for it. If you don't want to pay the premium, you can't get attached.

What that means is, that something else will come along. It will. Now for me...I had some things I "needed," at least 180 hp, and I really wanted >130 knots. As one might infer that really limits to RG. BUT, I will say this, and this is weird, because when I didn't have a plane I thought I would be content with 130 Knots TAS, then you own a plane that's going ~140 knots TAS and you think....I REALLY WISH I COULD GO 157 knots TAS...but that takes money...

So all that being said, and I know this might step on toes...but watch out for the bells and whistles; the 430W in a Cherokee 180 will only go 125 (or less most likely) but most days you're flying with the iPad anyway.

Also, instrument wise.... If you're doing the checkride in a 2 VOR and DME equipped plane, you'll have to be able to talk about GPS procedures...but it's one less thing to "do."

Cause really, once you're moving from pt. A to pt. B on a beautiful sunny day...it's follow the iPad line in ForeFlight and then thinking about gap seals and all that because YOU REALLY NEED THE 3 Knots...but you don't, you just don't want to sell and buy a different plane. I'd say skip that and buy either a 182 with less equip or a budget retract....Most of us wanted to fly to go faster. Now, if you're plan is to do a lot of instrument flying...different story, but my general attitude is that I really only enjoy flying when it's reasonably nice out.

My opinion, flying at 135 with the iPad is more "fun" than flying at 125 with the 430W, and to stay into this activity, it has to be fun.
 
ChemGuy said:
Short body fuse. Don't plan on hauling normal sized adults in the back. Not a lot of room.

Nice panel and engine. If the panel is what you want and the short fuse is ok for your needs throw him an offer.
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I have had normal sized adults in my candy bar Cherokee. They fit just fine. Now I have a nephew who is 6-5 and he was hitting his head in the front seats. But then again I don't consider his height normal either. But a 5-10 to 6ft person can easily fit in the back. Granted the stretch fuselage will fit better but it can be done and its not be a big problem.
 
simtech said:
I have had normal sized adults in my candy bar Cherokee. They fit just fine. Now I have a nephew who is 6-5 and he was hitting his head in the front seats. But then again I don't consider his height normal either. But a 5-10 to 6ft person can easily fit in the back. Granted the stretch fuselage will fit better but it can be done and its not be a big problem.
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I agree. It does depend on the size of the person, their willingness to sit in a small space, and their dexterity. I've had a 200+ pound six footer back there with no problem, but he was a pilot, knew the plane, and valued safety and economy above personal comfort. He fit, but there was not much room to move around. He's also a fighter pilot, so he's used to tiny cockpits.

That said, I've had many people slightly smaller back there. They generally aren't thrilled but it is doable. When we have four on the plane we try to stop every two hours or so to stretch.

If someone bigger, someone less tolerant of tight spaces, or someone with limited dexterity, the longer fuselage is going to go up in value fast.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
I know about the shorter fuse. My preference is a taperwing Archer but I'm open to the candy bar Cherokee too. Probably not a LOT of times I'd haul anyone in back, but it might happen, so it is something I'm thinking about. The advanced panel is neat, however I am just a VFR pilot who aspires to an instrument rating, and an ipad and Stratus would also do well for most of what I'll be doing. The airplane I currently fly has dual glass panels and while it's cool, I also enjoy a 6 pack of steam gauges. Another candidate:

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail/aircraft/Single+Engine+Piston/1985/Piper/Archer+II/2078070.html
Click to expand...

Both look like solid airplanes, but for the price the older one has a lot more capability. If you aspire to IFR, it is great, and likely would appeal more to IFR guys looking to buy when it comes time to sell. Plus, a brand new factory reman is pretty sweet. The reality is between the panel and the engine you are at the asking price. Of course, that might also mean it needs something...

Be careful with aircraft out of FL. Some folks know how to deal with corrosion issues down there, others do not. Pre-buy is a must; I've heard generally favorable reports of Savvy but have not used them.

Don't worry straight vs taper wing. Both fly fine and have some minor pluses and minuses, but its insignificant compared to other considerations.

I saw someone mention a Grumman. There are a few people on this board that can give you the full scoop on those, but for my mission we needed the extra useful load of the Cherokee... when I was shopping PA28s averaged 100 to 150 pounds more useful than a Grumman. If you don't need that, chat with some of the Grumman guys and see if it would be a good fit.
 
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