Air-to-Air Piper Arrow

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Lowflynjack, Apr 16, 2020.

  1. Lowflynjack

    Lowflynjack En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2014
    Messages:
    2,902
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jack Fleetwood
    Shot a local plane yesterday for Pipers magazine. Was a fun shoot!

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  2. RyanB

    RyanB Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    12,795
    Location:
    Chattanooga, TN
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ryan
    Nice looking airplane!
     
    Lowflynjack likes this.
  3. Pilawt

    Pilawt Final Approach

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2005
    Messages:
    8,293
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pilawt
    Wonderful photos, Jack. You are a master with the highlights from the low sun angles.

    One small nit to pick, if I may. This is not an Arrow II; by serial number it's a 1971 Arrow 200. The Arrow II was the 1972-76 version with longer fuselage, dorsal fin, wings and stabilator.
     
    GrummanBear and Lowflynjack like this.
  4. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2008
    Messages:
    14,679
    Location:
    mass fla
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    ron keating
    Nice Photos as usual.
     
    Lowflynjack likes this.
  5. Lowflynjack

    Lowflynjack En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2014
    Messages:
    2,902
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jack Fleetwood
    The side of the plane says it’s an Arrow II! That’s all I went by!
     
    GrummanBear likes this.
  6. Pilawt

    Pilawt Final Approach

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2005
    Messages:
    8,293
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pilawt
    Yeah, I've heard some folks claim all of the early short-body -200s are IIs. Ain't so.
     
  7. Rgbeard

    Rgbeard Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2017
    Messages:
    1,898
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ and Ensenada, Mexico
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    rgbeard
    Where's the belly shot??
     
  8. jonvcaples

    jonvcaples Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2019
    Messages:
    395
    Location:
    Colorado, USA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Sasquatch
    Pretty!!
     
    Possum and Lowflynjack like this.
  9. andersenpj

    andersenpj Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2018
    Messages:
    11
    Location:
    Reno, Nv
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    andersenpj
    Great photos, and that thing is boss. Like mine (a 72). Straight wing and big stabilator look so cool. And my nose gear doors don’t close perfectly either.
     
    Lowflynjack likes this.
  10. Warlock

    Warlock Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2013
    Messages:
    1,160
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Warlock
    Nice work as usual Jack...I miss my Arrow...
     
    Lowflynjack likes this.
  11. Lowflynjack

    Lowflynjack En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2014
    Messages:
    2,902
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jack Fleetwood
    Ran out of daylight when the clouds rolled in early! I got a few, but will have to try to brighten the up.
     
    denverpilot likes this.
  12. Polarisguy

    Polarisguy Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    May 30, 2018
    Messages:
    129
    Location:
    Davie County, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Polarisguy
    Great shots! Bums me out with Pipers in general, kinda like Chrysler products, good engineering, crappy QC. Look at nose gear doors and speaking of doors, look at the cabin door. But the photography was awesome Jack
     
  13. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2010
    Messages:
    5,054
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    hindsight2020
    Don't let perfect be the enemy of good enough. The thing wasn't meant to go to the moon and re-enter the atmosphere, where hypersonic streamline discontinuities make the difference between life and death. Lapped skins and protruding rivets were all part of the cost savings in manufacturing when they went with the PA-28 line. A lot of people forget that airfoil was actually laminar, but the skin and fastening techniques used were not prescribed for it and defeat the camber profile, which was otherwise selected for cabin seating reasons. Even so, compared to the more expensive to manufacture and much higher part-count Comanche, it was a success. There's a bunch other purposely applied cuts to the PA-28 line that were done for economic reasons (narrow cabin width being the big one, lack of retract on the dakota being the other one, both to shelter the Comanche then Lance sales, respectively). Hard to win the beauty pageant when your parents threw a pot of boiling water on your face as a baby. The point I'm making to you is that these failings as you see them, weren't the bug, but the feature as far as Piper was concerned. They could care less what personal travelers who pine over the canard of "bonanza quality" think about finish. They weren't the target market.

    Flush riveting and more aesthetically pleasing forms of butting sheet metal is labor intensive, for little gained in the aggregate. Ditto for largely cosmetic nose gear doors hinged to the cowling. Financially speaking, the Arrow was a wild commercial success in the complex trainer market; the fact we largely use them as orphaned hamburger grabbers in post-PTS 2020 is beside the point of the airplane in its inception. Some 3rd party vendors have done some finishing work on stock samples and made them de facto M20F/Js in cruise speed, at a very large capex investment for measly 10 knots. But that's certified aviation for ya.
     
    Bobanna and GRG55 like this.
  14. Lowflynjack

    Lowflynjack En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2014
    Messages:
    2,902
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jack Fleetwood
    Well, I don’t judge people’s planes, I take photos of them. I’m pretty sure you can’t judge Piper for gear doors on a plane from the 70s!! I will also say you’re wrong about the door. That’s a new seal and was designed that way. I know because I thought it was open.
     
    SoCal RV Flyer and Juliet Hotel like this.
  15. Cole Weatherby

    Cole Weatherby Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2020
    Messages:
    2
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    ColeWeatherby
    Very true! This is my plane. Some previous owner put an Arrow II decal on it. Maybe I can paint over or scrape off the “II” as it does bother me. Also, the registration lists it as a ‘71 model, but it rolled off the line in Nov of ‘70. Not sure about that one either...
     
  16. Cole Weatherby

    Cole Weatherby Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2020
    Messages:
    2
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    ColeWeatherby
    Pretty sure the nose gear doors need to be adjusted, so not really a QC issue. The adjustment can get off when the lower cowling is removed. It seems it is not that noticeable on jacks, but when air is pushing on it, it shows itself. The main door seal is made by AvTek and is a temporary solution to a dented area on the inner door frame that results in a poor seal with the standard one. Needs a little body work to really fix. The door fit was probably much better in 1970.
     
  17. Brad Smith

    Brad Smith Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2017
    Messages:
    1,097
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Brad Smith
    Great pictures! The Arrow looks like an airplane is supposed to look like, if you know what I mean. Not a bad line on it.
     
  18. Juliet Hotel

    Juliet Hotel Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2018
    Messages:
    2,415
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Juliet Hotel
    Pretty sure the nose gear doors is an adjustment issue and therefore were likely perfect when they left the factory umpteen years ago and therefore a potential issue for any retractable owner. Can't really hold Piper accountable for that. Might not even be able to hold the current owner accountable depending on what the wind does vs static in a hangar up on jacks. The door seal? Its so uniform that I kind of suspect its some sort of aftermarket thing. Believe me I always find Pipers lacking as compared to other brands, but I don't think anything in these pics should lead one to conclude that Piper as a brand or Arrow as a model should be avoided.
     
  19. Pilawt

    Pilawt Final Approach

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2005
    Messages:
    8,293
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pilawt
    Congrats on a pretty airplane. I've always regarded the Arrow as a comfortable, economical machine.

    The FAA registration database on yours says "MFR YEAR 1970" -- but that's only a reference to the calendar year in which the Certificate of Airworthiness was first issued, and has nothing to do with the manufacturer's model year (likewise my '78 172N was built in October 1977, and shows up in FAA records as "1977").

    By serial number it's in the 1971 model year, when the ads called it "Cherokee Arrow 200B". Piper changed their serial number format in 1971. Beginning that year, the first two digits after the "28-" were the model year. The next two digits identified which Cherokee variant it was. For the Arrow 180 Piper arbitrarily used '30' and for the Arrow 200 it was '35'. So the Arrow 180 serials for the 1971 model year were 28-7130001 through 28-713013 (when production of the 180 hp Arrow was discontinued); and '71 Arrow 200s were 28-7135001 through 28-7135229.

    By the way, actor Leonard Nimoy once owned and flew a 1971 Cherokee Arrow 200. The recent documentary "For The Love of Spock" on Netflix includes some family home movie footage of him in the airplane.
     
    Cole Weatherby likes this.
  20. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2010
    Messages:
    5,054
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    hindsight2020
    Yeah mine's the same way, serial number prefix 73, but it's registered as a 1974 arrow ii.

    Pre-72 arrow 200s are a bit of a rarity in the market today. They're kind of the m20e of the arrow lineup.they should also be the fastest of the NA arrows, though 20hp isnt really gonna do much for speed over the arrow 180. The shorter wingspan over the III seems to account for most of the speed difference, the cabin stretch didn't really increase the wetted area a relevant amount.
     
    Cole Weatherby likes this.
  21. Possum

    Possum Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2014
    Messages:
    286
    Location:
    South Carolina
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Frank
    Don't want to contribute to thread drift but it's great to see you post Jon, and hope all it well. Good luck going forward.
     
  22. SoCal RV Flyer

    SoCal RV Flyer En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2016
    Messages:
    2,940
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    SoCal RV Flyer
    Perhaps, but as I hammered each dimple on the RV, I was keeping track of every femto-knot gain! :D
     
    GrummanBear, Juliet Hotel and Pilawt like this.
  23. Arrow76R

    Arrow76R Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2015
    Messages:
    301
    Location:
    Colorado Springs
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Arrow76r
    Data point: My '69 Arrow 200 s/n is 35316 and is the straight wing, "short" fuselage, auto-extend gear (since removed) 200hp IO-360. Airworthiness certificate is "1969" although I have no idea exactly when it was built.
     
  24. Pilawt

    Pilawt Final Approach

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2005
    Messages:
    8,293
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pilawt
    You have the 316th of the 392 Arrow 200s built in the 1969 model year. They skipped the numbers 35393-35600 and started a new sequence at 35601 for the 1970 model year.

    Arrow 180s had a separate serial number sequence - 30004 through 31135 and 31251 through 31270.
     
    Lowflynjack likes this.
  25. jonvcaples

    jonvcaples Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2019
    Messages:
    395
    Location:
    Colorado, USA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Sasquatch
    Posssum-thanks, all the best to you and yours!
     
    Lowflynjack likes this.
  26. Stephen Poole

    Stephen Poole Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2018
    Messages:
    338
    Location:
    Birmingham, Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Professor31
    Beautiful.
     
    Lowflynjack likes this.
  27. pburger

    pburger Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    May 26, 2007
    Messages:
    277
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Paul B.
    I'm still planning on setting up something for my Arrow (a real Arrow II). In annual now. Waiting to get the bolt holes checked.
     
  28. Ghery

    Ghery Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    10,478
    Location:
    Olympia, Washington
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ghery Pettit
    All my complex time is in a single Arrow. The club used to have a PA-28R-200, a 1969 model. Serial number is 28R-35054, N9351N. We sold it a number of years ago and it is now based in southern CA. Something about the rudders to seat angle (?) and 3 hours was my limit. Anything longer and it was all I could do to crawl out, my knees were shot. I never bounced a landing in that thing. Once the mains touched down it was finished flying. Never had more than 1 person up front, never had a passenger in the back seat. Sure could haul a load that way.
     
  29. GaryV

    GaryV Pre-takeoff checklist PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2016
    Messages:
    419
    Location:
    Bullhead City, AZ
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    GaryV
    Great photos Jack. Was that a husband wife in the plane? Always like it when the wife goes along

    gary
     
  30. Lowflynjack

    Lowflynjack En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2014
    Messages:
    2,902
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jack Fleetwood
    Yep. And she bought him the photo session for Christmas. Some kind of wife!!!
     
    denverpilot likes this.
  31. GaryV

    GaryV Pre-takeoff checklist PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2016
    Messages:
    419
    Location:
    Bullhead City, AZ
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    GaryV
    Well mine bought both my first plane, told me we needed to upgrade to a faster plane for longer trips, and then told me that it would be nice of I got my instrument rating to make it easier to take the long trips.

    She’s been spoiling me for 45 years.

    Gary
     
    Juliet Hotel likes this.
  32. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2012
    Messages:
    6,528
    Location:
    KRDU
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Brian Flynn
    Nice pictures...but I learned in a PA-28, so I think I'll always be partial.
     
  33. Lowflynjack

    Lowflynjack En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2014
    Messages:
    2,902
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jack Fleetwood
    And the results!

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  34. pburger

    pburger Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    May 26, 2007
    Messages:
    277
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Paul B.
    Yikes! The article says Vso is 45 kts. That's about 10 kts low! "...you needn't feel out of your depth flying approaches at 60 kts..." Well, with a Vso of 56kts, 60kts is cutting it just a little close.

    Also, the owner's perspective talks about a "CO2" detector. You'd think editors of an aviation magazine would catch that.

    I know, I know -- I wish details didn't bother me so much. It's a nice article about my favorite airplane, with some great photos!
     
  35. Lowflynjack

    Lowflynjack En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2014
    Messages:
    2,902
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jack Fleetwood
    My disclaimer is... I just take the photos! The owner of the plane is @Cole Weatherby... he didn't say it was a CO2 detector... they edited it to say that!! He spotted it quickly!

    Cole Weatherby Looks like they did some over-editing of my article and changed carbon monoxide to carbon dioxide, and CO to CO2. Now everyone is going to think I don't know my aeromedical factors!!