Advise on a Lance!

[dogman]

After selling the Six I have decided to go back to another or a Lance.

Just wondering what is some of the Lance advise you could give me.

I do not have much retract time but There is a Lance for rent at STJ that I can rent and build some time. While I am looking.

Jon

Jon

 

[Ken Ibold]

What kind of advice do you seek? (I am on my second Lance.)

 

[poadeleted20]

If it's a T-tail, fly before you buy -- some folks can live with the way they fly (especially takeoff/landing), others can't.

 

[mark.fitzpatrick]

If it's a T-tail, fly before you buy -- some folks can live with the way they fly (especially takeoff/landing), others can't.

What are some of the characteristics that differ?

 

[dogman]

What kind of advice do you seek? (I am on my second Lance.)

Just wondering if there are any big bad AD's or SB's.

Just anything you may have learned or lessons that would help me my search.

Is there any specific to a Lance that I NEED TO KNOW?

Thanks.

 

[Ken Ibold]

OK, T-tail vs straight tail: The T is up out of the prop wash, and so what happens is that on takeoff there is a speed at which the elevator suddenly become more effective (and just the opposite on landing). This leads to overrotation at first. You can learn to deal with it, no prob. But some people don't like it. When landing, you can plop the nose hard, too. In addition, the T requires more runway.

Turbo: The turbo Lances have some cooling issues (no cowl flaps). There is a mod to put louvres in the cowl, and that helps some, but it's far from a panacea.

Speed mods: Lots of Lances have speed mods to one degree or another. The gear fairings, flap gap seals and hinge covers do help some in low-speed handling, and may give you a couple of knots. The wing tips look cool. The LoPresti cowl aids cooling and gives you a few knots. But none of these things will turn it into a sporty speedster.

Club seating vs straight: Your call. Club is popular, but when I bought my second one I specifically sought out straight seats. Lots of people don't like riding backwards. The rear facing seats sit very straight up and don't recline, and in this airframe there's not enough footroom for two pairs of feet facing each other. Club is great if you're flying 3 or 4, not so great if you're flying 5 or more. (There is a 7th seat option for forward facing seating.)

Mechanical: Not much that's unusual. You might want to check the overhaul/replacement date of the hydraulic gear powerpack, as that's a costly part. Also check the integrity of the doors, particularly the fit of the top of the aft door. Lots of pax slam it with the latch extended, bending the bejesus out of everything. You can bend it back, but that doesn't make it good as new.

Make sure your checkout includes a flight at max gross. The airplane flies very differently loaded than it does with just two aboard and no bags -- ie a training configuration. It'll skate around a lot at rotation speed and really wallows on initial climb. Yes, you can takeoff at max gross on a 95 degree day, but you'll need runway and steely nerves.

What else?

 

[Skip Miller]

Make sure your checkout includes a flight at max gross. The airplane flies very differently loaded than it does with just two aboard and no bags -- ie a training configuration. It'll skate around a lot at rotation speed and really wallows on initial climb. Yes, you can takeoff at max gross on a 95 degree day, but you'll need runway and steely nerves.

What else?

Everything Ken said but make sure your checkout at max gross includes a short field landing. Coming in at 1.3 Vso or slightly less requires hanging it on the prop. The deck angle can be alarming unless you have been there before. I've never flown a T-tail but I bet a max gross, short field landing in a T is an eyeopener!

-Skip

 

[AdamZ]

The Lance is a great Traveling / Hauling machine. Gulps about 14-16 GPH ( Ken can confirm or amend this figure as he is currently flying one. Its not so much the landings that were an issue when I flew in a T-Tail but the Take offs. My preference is for a straight tail and club configureation. The all forward seating for me is tough. I find there is no space in the middle row and your knees are up to your chin. But all in all its a good form of transport. The T-Tail / Straight Tail and club vs. forward seating is really all just preference just like the high wing low wing thing.

 

[dogman]

Thanks for the reports.

What I have leaarned from you all.

I want a straight tail Foward seating Lance.

Owning the Six I learned all about the Hot and Heavy operations in it. Do you think the Lance would be any different in the Straight tail model as far as flying characteristics.

Do you think the Lance has much advantage over the Six 300. The fuel burn should be about the same but are they really that much faster ?

Jon

 

[Ken Ibold]

Owning the Six I learned all about the Hot and Heavy operations in it. Do you think the Lance would be any different in the Straight tail model as far as flying characteristics.

Do you think the Lance has much advantage over the Six 300. The fuel burn should be about the same but are they really that much faster ?

A straight-tail Lance will fly almost identically to the Six. The major difference is the deck angle on the ground, as the Six is much more nose-high. That will change your takeoff/landing sight picture, but that's about it.

I prefer the Lance over the Six for a couple of reasons. One is speed, the Lance will do 155 at 8000 feet at 65-70% power, for about 10 nmpg. The other is that folding legs are just so much cooler.

 

[SCCutler]

...The other is that folding legs are just so much cooler.

At last, an honest soul!

edit:

Yes, I have been known to say, "Positive rate, gear up."

Even though I am flying a single-engine piston bird.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

OK, T-tail vs straight tail: The T is up out of the prop wash, and so what happens is that on takeoff there is a speed at which the elevator suddenly become more effective (and just the opposite on landing). This leads to overrotation at first. You can learn to deal with it, no prob. But some people don't like it. When landing, you can plop the nose hard, too. In addition, the T requires more runway.

Ken,

Does the T-tail change the CG envelope on the Lance like it does on the Arrow? I used to be able to fly an Arrow III with my also-large CFII (520 pounds of meat in the front seats) and be within CG, but now with the T-tailed Arrow IV and a different CFI that's 75 pounds lighter, I have to throw a 50-lb sandbag in the baggage compartment to be within CG.

Basically, the front edge of the envelope moved back 3.5 inches.

 

[Ken Ibold]

Ken,

Does the T-tail change the CG envelope on the Lance like it does on the Arrow? I used to be able to fly an Arrow III with my also-large CFII (520 pounds of meat in the front seats) and be within CG, but now with the T-tailed Arrow IV and a different CFI that's 75 pounds lighter, I have to throw a 50-lb sandbag in the baggage compartment to be within CG.

Basically, the front edge of the envelope moved back 3.5 inches.

Kent, I've never run CG calcs on a T tail, and I don't have a book handy. The straight tails do tend toward forward cg. Two in front and full fuel can put you forward of the envelope, depending on the size of the folks.

 

[2002 Harv]

Yes, I have been known to say, "Positive rate, gear up."

Even though I am flying a single-engine piston bird.

I did something like this the other day.
I went to look at an early model Bonanza and fly it. When I took off, I was sort of waiting to hear "positive rate". Of course the owner didn't say it. He finally said "I think we are out of usable runway" and I sucked up the gear.
Gotta get in the single engine piston mind set again.

John

 

[Ghery]

Ken,

Does the T-tail change the CG envelope on the Lance like it does on the Arrow? I used to be able to fly an Arrow III with my also-large CFII (520 pounds of meat in the front seats) and be within CG, but now with the T-tailed Arrow IV and a different CFI that's 75 pounds lighter, I have to throw a 50-lb sandbag in the baggage compartment to be within CG.

Basically, the front edge of the envelope moved back 3.5 inches.

I've got that same issue with a 1969 Arrow with a 3 blade prop. Solo, no problem. Add a second person my size, add a 50 pound block of concrete to the baggage compartment (we keep a couple in the hangar). I sure surprised a CFII in May with that requirement. I did the whole preflight while he worked a W&B problem to see if he agreed.

 

[Dwight B. Van Zanen]

I've got that same issue with a 1969 Arrow with a 3 blade prop. Solo, no problem. Add a second person my size, add a 50 pound block of concrete to the baggage compartment (we keep a couple in the hangar). I sure surprised a CFII in May with that requirement. I did the whole preflight while he worked a W&B problem to see if he agreed.

My 180 needs some bagage weight with 2 big guys in front, too. I just loaded about 50 pounds of gear in baggage - survival stuff. Works for 1 or 2 in front, and 1 in back too. Need it out for 2 in back.