Advice about choosing an airplane

aranpura

Pre-Flight
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New Haven, CT
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Ash
Dear POA,

I've been going around and around about buying an airplane for years, and all I have to show for it is years gone by without a plane. It's time to get some input from those more experienced than me. I have a feeling that many of you who own airplanes may have been in my position with your first purchase, so maybe my situation sounds familiar to you.

I have about 350 hours TT (and an IFR rating), mostly in Piper Warriors and a fair chunk in 172s. I've flown and enjoyed both an older Debonair and a Cherokee Six, just a few hours in each. My typical flights are in the 1.5-2 hour range, but I have made a few longer trips -- these have been pottering along at 100 knots without an autopilot.

My wife is just now beginning to enjoy flying with me, and we have one 5 year-old son. We live in New Haven, Connecticut and will be here for at least another 2-3 years. While we are here, I would like to get up to New Hampshire often to see my sister, and to southern Ohio to see my mother. I'd like to fly up to northern Vermont and Maine for skiing trips. We have friends in Baltimore and Nashville we'd like to visit.

So far, I have often been frustrated by the load limits of the Warrior. With half fuel I can take four small adults, and maybe even squeeze our son onto someone's lap. But we can never make a trip with friends which is limiting for us. I'd like to be able to frequently take another two adults, or an adult and a child, in addition to the three members of my own family.

In a few years, we are likely to move back to England. I've got a good friend there who has made transatlantic crossings before, and he is happy to help ferry a small plane back with me. The problem is that our mission in England changes substantially -- England has a lot of small grass fields, and in particular my friend has a small field at his farm where I would like to visit often. When we're there we will also be taking little flights to Europe, those will be asphalt runways.

So here's my dilemma. I'd like a fast, fuel-efficient airplane that can defintely carry 4 adults, and maybe even 4 adults and two kids. It should be able to land on grass comfortably. I prefer round gauges to glass cockpits (only because I have never flown behind glass), and I am happy to get a substantial amount of transitional training for high performance and complex singles. AvGas is much more expensive in England, so if I could find a fast, cost effective airplane with a diesel engine I'd buy it -- but this may not exist yet.

So far I've looked very closely at the older Mooneys, which I like because they are fast and beautiful and fuel-efficient. It doesn't sound like they would be well-suited to small grass fields, though. And of course, I'm limited to the four seats.

I've considered the A36 which seems like a great airplane. Fuel burn is fairly steep (especially in England), but this could be a good option. I don't know how they perform on grass, and I've never flown in one.

The Cherokee Six is stalwart and maybe very well suited for this mission, but it's a bit slow. I have flown one and enjoyed it, even though I did think it flew like a truck. I'm not as excited about this plane, again just an emotional response -- I could change my mind easily.

So there you have it, I've been going around in circles and haven't gotten anywhere. I've spent far too many hours looking at ads in an unfocused way, and meanwhile I wish I'd bought an airplane 5 years ago. I'd appreciate any thoughts that might help get me to a more focused approach.

Thanks!
Ash.
 
If you need six seats and want to go into grass strips, the six seat Cherokees and Cessna 206 are probably your better choices. If you can live with four seats, the Skylane may be your best choice, particularly if you find the Pipers unappealing.
 
Join a club here, buy a sailplane when you get back to England. Half of New Haven drives to VT on the weekends, with our weather you might as well join them. Or plan to buy and sell, planning to buy and bring over seems to complicate matters.
 
Everything is a compromise. For your mission in the states a Cherokee 6 or any of the fixed gear derivatives is what you want. True, it isn't sexy, and it isn't the fastest, but it will do the job.

But that may not be suitable for your mission in Europe. You definitely want something more fuel efficient due to the fuel costs there. Again, you will have to compromise on your mission.
 
If you need 6 seats, an A36 or PA32 of some sort will work. If you can get by with 4, a Comanche 250 or Mooney (or 33/35 Bonanza) will work.
 
If you need 4, a 182 is hard to beat for your mission, if you can afford a Katmai, you will be in heaven. If you need 6, then either a 206 or A-36 if you're going a lot of unimproved strips. The Bonanza gear is really rugged, it's the primary small plane serving the Outback. With your mission length and back country type desires, the 206 may serve you better with the high wing to camp under.

The CD-330 engine will likely be STCd to the 206 early on since it's used by commercial operators in Africa and still in production for OEM installation.

The 182 already has a Diesel available.
 
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Hi Ash. It sounds to me like the Bonanza may be a good choice for you, despite the higher fuel burn. Another consideration, if you could live with fewer seats, might be a C-182 with diesel. They are available now, but cost a pretty penny. Also, maybe a Cessna 210?
 
For four people and maybe a kid consider a Sportsman 2+2 with a diesel. For just the three of you back in England consider a 172/177 with a 150hp engine and use autofuel.
Think about renting a bigger plane for the group outings
 
Cherokee 6 does fly like a truck , the mooney is too small for your needs, bonanza probably best bet, or possibly a DC3
 
If you can use the 4 seat models,look for a diesel,such as the Cessna 182/172 or the sportsman 2+2. All can handle grass strips.
 
A couple not-all-that-helpful things:

1. How long will you be living in England? Will you be "resident"? My understanding is that it's getting more complicated to fly N-registered planes on FAA licenses if you're a long-term resident of Europe. But that's the full extent of what I know about that, so hopefully others can provide more.

2. If you decide not to take your plane over there, think about getting a glider cert with self-launch endorsement if you get the chance (before you go). There are a lot of little fun two-seaters that are relatively cheap to operate in England but are technically SLMGs, not ASELs.
 
His 80% mission is a 4-seater with ice protection. He wants to cover some distance from time-time.

I see an SR-22 or FIKI Mooney in his future. He may also be a candidate for an RV.
 
I've considered the A36 which seems like a great airplane. Fuel burn is fairly steep (especially in England), but this could be a good option. I don't know how they perform on grass, and I've never flown in one.

The A36 does very well on grass. A friend who owns one operates off of a grass strip for the past 8 years and thinks that pavement is a nice to have extravagance. His 1968 A36 is very roomy side to side, lots of good carrying capacity, speed, endurance, and a swiss army knife of rear seat configurability. A big selling point to me are those huge rear doors.

Fuel burn, while higher than the Warrior's you have experience with, is definite in line with the model. And there are ways to manage this to increase the economy via airframe mods and proper engine management.

I've been watching the sale sites and have seen many A36's built in the late 60's & early 70's at decent ask prices, and reasonably well equipped. So there is inventory out there for you to consider.
 
Is the budget $50,000 or closer to $500,000? I think that would factor in.
 
Is the budget $50,000 or closer to $500,000? I think that would factor in.

These have all been great thoughts, and very quick! I didn't mention budget because its somewhat flexible. I have to keep it under $150k, and much much prefer to keep it under $100k. I'm very "value conscious" but less absolutely cost conscious.
 
the Six will be the cheapest to "own"......the Bonanza is probably the funnest.
 
With 4+2 peoples, you are pretty much looking at the PA32's, 36 Bonanza, or Cessna 206/210. The large aft loading doors on those models make a lot of sense with that crowd. If you want speed, then one of the retractable models makes sense. Note that total fuel burned on any given trip will be lower with the retractable since they all have about the same engine power and thus burn about the same gallons per hour, but the retractables go farther in that hour. OTOH, initial purchase price, insurance, and maintenance will be higher on a retractable version of a fixed gear type (e.g., Lance versus Cherokee Six in the PA32 family). Between those three families of aircraft, you'd have to go fly them all and then
pick the one your wife likes best.
 
A couple not-all-that-helpful things:

1. How long will you be living in England? Will you be "resident"? My understanding is that it's getting more complicated to fly N-registered planes on FAA licenses if you're a long-term resident of Europe. But that's the full extent of what I know about that, so hopefully others can provide more.

2. If you decide not to take your plane over there, think about getting a glider cert with self-launch endorsement if you get the chance (before you go). There are a lot of little fun two-seaters that are relatively cheap to operate in England but are technically SLMGs, not ASELs.

I'll be living in England semi-permenantly, my wife is English and we're moving back there. I will ultimately be resident there. I have heard some buzz about this trouble with N-registered aircraft, but I haven't been able to learn more about this. I'll research more.
 
Thanks for all of the recommendations. For the sake of posterity, here’s a summary so far.

Mission: 80% of the time, 2 adults + 1 child, frequent 2 hour legs with moderate cross-country travel. 20% of the time 4 adults + 2 kids on shorter flights. In the future, I hope to take this plane to England where it will be used on shorter grass runways, as well as longer flights to paved runways in Europe.

Parameters: Reasonably fast, fuel-efficient 4 or 6 seat piston single with robust fixed or retractable gear and good soft field performance. Budget is $100-150k.

Suggestions in order of frequency mentioned:
Bonanza A36 (8)
Cherokee Six (5)
Cessna 182 (4)
Cessna 206 (3)
Bonanza S35 (2)
Cessna 210 (2)
Cessna 172 with 150 hp engine (2)
Sportsman 2+2 (2)
Mooney (2)
Comanche 250 (1)
Cirrus SR22 (1)
RV (1)

My thoughts:
I figured there would have to be a compromise somewhere, and your initial thoughts have confirmed that. I would be willing to give up six seats and settle for four. Speed and fuel efficiency remain paramount, and if it’s going to be a four-seater then it should really be able to carry four adults.

I like Cap’n Ron’s suggestion of trying out a short list of aircraft and letting my wife choose which one she likes best. Wise words from what must certainly be a happily married man. I’ll start gathering options.
 
I've considered the A36 which seems like a great airplane. Fuel burn is fairly steep (especially in England), but this could be a good option. I don't know how they perform on grass, and I've never flown in one.

The Cherokee Six is stalwart and maybe very well suited for this mission, but it's a bit slow. I have flown one and enjoyed it, even though I did think it flew like a truck. I'm not as excited about this plane, again just an emotional response -- I could change my mind easily.
look at fuel per mile instead of per hour. On a per-mile basis the A36 will use far less fuel than the cherokee 6.

Whatever you get, find something to like about the island of Jersey, you'll find yourself flying down there to buy cheap fuel
 
Beechcraft S 35 Bonanza - Performance Data

Horsepower: 285 Gross Weight: 3300 lbs
Top Speed: 184 kts Empty Weight: 1915 lbs
Cruise Speed: 178 kts

vs

Cessna 210 G, H & J, K, L Centurion - Performance Data

Horsepower: 285 Gross Weight: 3400 lbs
Top Speed: 174 kts Empty Weight: 1960 lbs
Cruise Speed: 167 kts

vs

Piper PA-24-C 260 Comanche - Performance Data

Horsepower: 260 Gross Weight: 3200 lbs
Top Speed: 170 kts Empty Weight: 1773 lbs
Cruise Speed: 161 kts

vs

Piper PA-32R,RT II-300 Lance - Performance Data

Horsepower: 300 Gross Weight: 3600 lbs
Top Speed: 165 kts Empty Weight: 1968 lbs
Cruise Speed: 156 kts

vs

Beechcraft A 36 Bonanza - Performance Data

Horsepower: 285 Gross Weight: 3600 lbs
Top Speed: 179 kts Empty Weight: 2195 lbs
Cruise Speed: 168 kts

One of these things is not like the other. :D

<edit: http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_900899_1970+V35+Bonanza.html >
 
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Ash I learned a lesson about fuel burns early on in my flying. The wife and I had a Cherokee 180 and would take trips with her parents who were flying their 260B Comanche. For an hour or so trip to their lake house we would take off first and I'd hear them take off about 15 minutes or so later. They would usually catch and pass us before we arrived, and when we would gas up after the weekend at our home field we were within about .2 gallons or so of using the same amount. This is no kidding. I haven't taken fuel burns seriously since when comparing trainers to traveling airplanes. As far as the Comanche is concerned the father in law did many trips with friends to Baja CA and always used the least amount of fuel in his group which included an Aztec, Piper Turbo Arrow lV, 172, Dakota, a Turbo Saratoga and a 182. It's a hell of an airplane.

If you want a fast plane buy one that is. If you want efficiency set FF accordingly.

Since the S35's have been suggested here I'll throw in my two cents since that is what we have currently. My useful load is 1,192 lbs without any mods to increase it such as tip tanks or vortex gens. I just did a quick W&B and assuming two 200lb. men up front, and two 140 lb women in the back seats I could take 90 lbs of bags by filling only to the slots giving 64 gallons of gas usable. That's about 4 hours at cruise at around 165 knots with reserves. This is bumping gross and aft CG, but a legal and doable flight.

Truthfully the mission you describe is more utilitarian and a 182, or 206 would be high on my list if I was trying to do your mission. Like stated earlier the Bonanza has about the toughest gear of anything you will find so the A36 would be a good choice as well. A 210 would do the mission as well, but the gear is problematic in that I don't know any 210 owners who haven't had issues. Overall it is a great plane though and if I had one I'd smile often. Good luck with your decision.
 
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I like Cap’n Ron’s suggestion of trying out a short list of aircraft and letting my wife choose which one she likes best. Wise words from what must certainly be a happily married man.
36 years last month -- all to the same woman. ;)

BTW, if you do look at any of the 4-seaters, take a good hard look at loading and unloading, especially if you'll be traveling with baggage. Sometimes the best 4-adult airplane is a 6-seater with the last two seats removed. Also check the actual W&B paperwork for any plane you examine. Do not rely on manufacturer's claims or what someone on the internet says their plane can do. Run some sample W&B problems with the actual loads with which you intend to fly in the actual plane you are considering purchasing.

As for bringing an N-reg plane to the UK, the bottom line is you'll have to get a JAA license if you will be a resident there, not just fly on your US FAA ticket. Here's a summary of that issue:
http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/easa/
 
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Can't disagree with the happy wife plan. That's why Walter's wife was instrumental in design of the interior and appointments of the Bonanza. Look up at the door, you will see a deep recess so she can step down into the well and not show her bloomers to the world. Now look in front of you. What's this then?! No drivers wheel! Most excellent. And those pesky pedals down there, well just reach down and fold them flat to the front floor because they are in the way. No muss no fuss. Keep the diaper back in the front seat well, tend to the feeding, diapering, etc in flight. Kids can sit on moms lap in smooth air, rear seat curtains, etc. If the little mrs is a pilot, or a wanna be pilot we can swing that steering wheel over and let her doodle along for a while. If she gets really serious, we can get a dual and bring those rudders right back up where she can reach.

What an amazing design. So far ahead of planes even 10-15 years after it's rollout. Married to the same girl going on 27 years now. She loves riding in the Bonanza. The Grumman, was ok, the Cessna 172 not so much.
 
I agree with Ron in regards to running W&B calculations on the actual airplane you intend to buy, especially on a Bonanza if you go that route. The empty CG's can vary by as much as 3 inches on the same models basically turning a 4 seater into a 3 seater on some airplanes. I know of S35 and later models with empty CG's being anywhere from 79 to 82 inches aft of the datum. Obviously the ones closer to 79 will be significantly more useful in its ability to carry a load without blowing out the rear CG limits. Mine is 79.49 FWIW and it has an STEC autopilot servo in the rear as well as electric trim which isn't real common on these. I have read of a couple of S models with empty CG's in the 78 range, but that is with some pretty significant diets having been imposed on these planes.

With all of this said, again if it were me I'd be looking 206 most likely for your mission. :wink2:
 
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