ADS-B Snowplows

denverpilot

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Yep. DIA ADS-B equipped the Snowplows.

You can see them driving around the airport on the various internet sites that show radar data. Got their own call signs and everything.

An awesome use of 1990 era technology and tax money. LOL.

Most of the radar data sites think they're airplanes so they stack little airplane logos on top of each other for the conga lines.

Amazing how "free money" turns instantly to stupid, isn't it?

I could have built them a few APRS trackers for $30 each if all they wanted was to see the Snowplows on the runway map. They've got commercial frequencies already that could handle a 1200 baud half duplex channel, so that wouldn't have been a problem...
 
List some of the sites so we can watch? On the other hand, FreeFlight announced this back in 2013.
 
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Ground vehicles are part of the ADS-B system design, presumably so that everyone operating in the movement area will be visible within in the same system.


JKG
 
Yep. DIA ADS-B equipped the Snowplows.

You can see them driving around the airport on the various internet sites that show radar data. Got their own call signs and everything.

An awesome use of 1990 era technology and tax money. LOL.

Most of the radar data sites think they're airplanes so they stack little airplane logos on top of each other for the conga lines.

Amazing how "free money" turns instantly to stupid, isn't it?

I could have built them a few APRS trackers for $30 each if all they wanted was to see the Snowplows on the runway map. They've got commercial frequencies already that could handle a 1200 baud half duplex channel, so that wouldn't have been a problem...

Are you sure it's ADS-B? We equip vehicles at ORD with transponders so the ASDE-X system can identify them better.
 
There exist ads-b boxes for vehicles, I know that free flight makes one.
 
Are you sure it's ADS-B? We equip vehicles at ORD with transponders so the ASDE-X system can identify them better.


I ruled it out because they have discreet "call signs" attached. (Which overlapped badly enough in the conga line you could only read one of them. Ha.)

The link that was sent to me that showed it was some site called FliteRadar24. Never used em before, and all I saw were screenshots.
 
I ruled it out because they have discreet "call signs" attached. (Which overlapped badly enough in the conga line you could only read one of them. Ha.)

The link that was sent to me that showed it was some site called FliteRadar24. Never used em before, and all I saw were screenshots.

ASDE-X allows unique identifiers to be assigned to individual vehicles equipped with transponders.

The plows at DEN may well be equipped with ADS-B squitters. O'Hare will be getting them in April and installing them on airport vehicles.

While you may assume it's a waste of money, there's some safety benefits involved. Precipitation has an unfortunate side effect of attenuating the ASDE-X radar....and runway plowing operations aren't typically on bright, clear, sunny days :D ADS-B tech on those vehicles allows a high probability of vehicle detection and hopefully a reduction in the risk of incursions.
 
However it was done, it sounds like a smart and integrative application of the technology to me.
 
I will be happy to use ADSB to see ground traffic. There has been several accidents involving snow plow vs airplane.
 
However it was done, it sounds like a smart and integrative application of the technology to me.

This. Visibility can drop to next to nothing during snow removal operations. This makes coordination between Operations/Snow Teams/ATC difficult particularly when the vehicles can't be seen from the tower yet have to clear runways.
 
Seems like we have ground controllers and procedures for such things. Hmm. Let's see. A flat table with a ramp diagram and a few pieces of chewing gum could probably be used if it's getting really hairy. LOL.
 
Seems like we have ground controllers and procedures for such things. Hmm. Let's see. A flat table with a ramp diagram and a few pieces of chewing gum could probably be used if it's getting really hairy. LOL.

That would work at a small airport. DEN? ORD? ATL? LAX? Not so much.
 
Seems like we have ground controllers and procedures for such things. Hmm. Let's see. A flat table with a ramp diagram and a few pieces of chewing gum could probably be used if it's getting really hairy. LOL.

Ok, lets see you move 30+ pieces around a board, all while controlling it all...
 
Seems like we have ground controllers and procedures for such things. Hmm. Let's see. A flat table with a ramp diagram and a few pieces of chewing gum could probably be used if it's getting really hairy. LOL.
Well, see, here's the thing.....that worked in the old days when you had a butt-ton of paid manpower to move all your little pieces around.

So what do you want? Jobs, or cost savings? I'd suggest that equipping the plows with xpdrs is ultimately cheaper than the additional bodies.
 
Seems like we have ground controllers and procedures for such things. Hmm. Let's see. A flat table with a ramp diagram and a few pieces of chewing gum could probably be used if it's getting really hairy. LOL.

Have you calculated how much the salary of the guy moving your pieces of gum is going to be?
 
Seems like we have ground controllers and procedures for such things. Hmm. Let's see. A flat table with a ramp diagram and a few pieces of chewing gum could probably be used if it's getting really hairy. LOL.

Humans goof, machines/computers don't (generally). I'd rather trust a computer that takes no breaks, and has no "personal issues" on its mind.
Also, the ADS-B is seen by both pilots and controllers, so lots of eyes to detect an impending collision (in low vis conditions).
 
He's always there and required by law. Heh. He's called a Ground Controller.
Do you realize that there are a lot fewer of them on duty at any given time than there used to be when people moved pieces around on a status board?
 
Ok, lets see you move 30+ pieces around a board, all while controlling it all...

Moving pieces of gum on a board really only tells you where you THINK a vehicle might be, not where he actually is. That's why ASDE-X and ADS-B is a great safety feature.

For what it's worth, most V/PD incursions are influenced by being lost or disoriented on the airfield. It doesn't help that many of the drivers pushing snow on an airport (at least at ORD) are not full-time employees - they're seasonal city motor pool employees brought on to staff up in winter conditions.
 
Moving pieces of gum on a board really only tells you where you THINK a vehicle might be, not where he actually is. That's why ASDE-X and ADS-B is a great safety feature.



For what it's worth, most V/PD incursions are influenced by being lost or disoriented on the airfield. It doesn't help that many of the drivers pushing snow on an airport (at least at ORD) are not full-time employees - they're seasonal city motor pool employees brought on to staff up in winter conditions.


Like I said, coulda done it for less than $100 a vehicle with other tech. Maybe $300 with government markup.
 
Like I said, coulda done it for less than $100 a vehicle with other tech. Maybe $300 with government markup.

Yes, but ADS-B lets the pilots see it, even if the controller is looking elsewhere or dozing.
 
Yes, but ADS-B lets the pilots see it, even if the controller is looking elsewhere or dozing.

The tech I was thinking of could feed the back end computers and still be shoved out the expensive ADS-B pipe to the airplanes... data is data...
 
The tech I was thinking of could feed the back end computers and still be shoved out the expensive ADS-B pipe to the airplanes... data is data...

If lives depend on it (e.g. collision detection), it would need to be TSO'ed.
And that would cost a bundle, regardless of the simplicity of the device.
 
Yes, but ADS-B lets the pilots see it, even if the controller is looking elsewhere or dozing.

That would be nice. I was taxiing in DEN one fine snowy day, and encountered a snow plow on a taxiway. Stopped and asked ground. Apparently the plow got lost off the back end of the conga line and didn't know where to go or what to do so he was just sitting there, waiting... :dunno:
 
If lives depend on it (e.g. collision detection), it would need to be TSO'ed.

And that would cost a bundle, regardless of the simplicity of the device.


Huh. That priorities problem again. Amazingly dumb.
 
I guess some people have to beat up on everything the government does. What I think many americans want a government that spends little to no money, makes no mistakes and has people working for minimum wage doing a job that really needs three people to do and with no benefits or retirement and most of all no union because unions are just a bunch of commies.

That would make a large segment of americans happy.
 
^^^ over-reactionary silliness. People want effective solutions with reasonable price tags. Heading for $20T in debt means something has to give, whether whiners like it or not.
 
Nate, please. The world marches out of step with your genius, we get it already.
 
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Nate, please. The world marches out of step with your genius, we get it already.


Pretty rude. What did I say that wasn't true?

I'm all for lovely gadgetry to see snowplows on runways. Whatever.

I'm just not a fan of the price tag of systems designed to 80's technology that aren't adding much value.

That problem can literally be fixed with a $20 GPS + modem module and an FM radio's audio and PTT interface.

Especially when we're buying it all on credit. Lots and lots of credit. But this isn't SZ.

The problem for a long time at many agencies, not just FAA, is they're stuck in a much slower tech era and totally hogtied by their policies that these things need to be certified six ways from sideways before they're used.

If you handed the problem, with NO prerequisites for technology used or certifications by folks who haven't seen the outside world in ten years from behind the expensive mountain of paperwork they think makes it all safer, to say, five decent engineers... they could give you five very workable and safe-enough solutions in a week. And they'd be LESS complex and less failure prone, and when they did fail, cheap and easy to fix.

It's not about me or my skillset. I'm a friggin' idiot and I *can* build a tracking system for snowplows with COTS gear in one day. We're talking APRS here. Bob Bruinga at the U.S. Naval Observatory built that in his free time. Not me. With MINOR tweaks it'd be able to handle the job requirements as long as the data was passed back into the ADS-B data stream to the aircraft.

It's about wondering when we got so wrapped around the bureaucratic loan-funded axle that we can't do anything for less than a few billion dollars. And wondering why folks are so resigned to the really expensive methodology that really doesn't lead to any better solution but costs massively more money than really necessary.

I don't get the lack of concern over outrageously expensive solutions. In the private sector, we have to weigh that decision every day. What feature and functionality does an ADS-B device at $X dollars buy me over a simpler ad cheaper solution? And how many times a year are snowplows really on the runway in truly impossible weather conditions to see them? Is it really worth the price tag? Are we willing to accept any risk at all?

Obviously we are. Otherwise we'd simply close the airport and count all the trucks at the garage before reopening.

But I see no harm in asking if the solution our government, operating with essentially an open credit card, came up with. It should be possible to find a document showing the decision matrix showing the benefits over other systems proposed and why those benefits are worth the difference in price.

It's not about one person. It's about a whole lot of people wanting their money's worth on the investment.

Technology meanwhile gets cheaper and cheaper and totally blows the analysis out of the water.

I bet every snowplow out there has an APCO Project 25 radio already installed in it. And every one of those radios has a data port for GPS data. But could the airport feed that data to a system in a server that would translate it and shove it into he ADS-B system?

Oh no. Not that. Not FAA certified.

Tracking mobile vehicles is a problem already solved a million times over by better and cheaper tech than ADS-B. Been to a 911 dispatch center recently? Did you see the pretty map with all the police, fire, and ambulance vehicles?
 
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