ADS-B out upgrade

Velocity173

Velocity173

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Velocity173
I read a lot about aircraft owners using iPads with all the capabilities they provide. I've read reports on the GDL-39 with ADS-B in capability. While this setup provides great SA, it doesn't meet the FAA mandate for ADS-B out. I plan on upgrading my panel within the next 2-3 yrs with an ADS-B in/out solution. Is anyone else saving for an upgrade or are we hoping the requirement gets pushed past 2020?
 
Velocity173 said:
I read a lot about aircraft owners using iPads with all the capabilities they provide. I've read reports on the GDL-39 with ADS-B in capability. While this setup provides great SA, it doesn't meet the FAA mandate for ADS-B out. I plan on upgrading my panel within the next 2-3 yrs with an ADS-B in/out solution. Is anyone else saving for an upgrade or are we hoping the requirement gets pushed past 2020?
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With nearly all of the ADS-B stations already in place, I highly doubt this will be pushed. There has been plenty of time allotted to upgrade and the corporate world is already well underway to meeting the 2020 mandate.

That being said, I'm just watching aircraft prices as the 2020 gets closer. It's a chunk of change that I think may push many owners to sell or let the airplanes rot. That in combination with proposed user fees, gas prices etc, it’s gonna be a tough sellers’ market for years to come.
 
My avionics guru tells me to not be in a hurry for the ADS-B out. He figures there will be price wars on this stuff as the 2020 deadline approaches.
 
tmyers said:
My avionics guru tells me to not be in a hurry for the ADS-B out. He figures there will be price wars on this stuff as the 2020 deadline approaches.
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Indeed, but there will also be a waiting list to get them installed as avionics shops will be swamped.
 
2020 is a long ways away. Who knows if we will still have the 310 by then. Aspen just announced an ADS-B solution, too, which looks interesting. Either way, I've got close to 6 years to comply, and have other things to spend money on that have a greater benefit to us. So I wouldn't be in a rush. My thought is in another few years we'll probably go ahead and do the upgrade. Let some more options come out and decide which one works best for us.
 
Seriously looking at a gtn-750 here so ADS-B out will have to wait
 
tmyers said:
Seriously looking at a gtn-750 here so ADS-B out will have to wait
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This months AOPA has a GTN-750 on the back with a GDL-88. Awesome setup but no way I could afford that kind of hardware right now. I'm hoping prices will come down in a few years.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
2020 is a long ways away. Who knows if we will still have the 310 by then. Aspen just announced an ADS-B solution, too, which looks interesting. Either way, I've got close to 6 years to comply, and have other things to spend money on that have a greater benefit to us. So I wouldn't be in a rush. My thought is in another few years we'll probably go ahead and do the upgrade. Let some more options come out and decide which one works best for us.
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I hear ya. I need an engine overhaul first. Once that's paid off I'll look at ADS-B.
 
You can get a gtn-650 and 106A for about the same price as a 430 and a 106A

The 750 runs about $4k more
 
Velocity173 said:
I hear ya. I need an engine overhaul first. Once that's paid off I'll look at ADS-B.
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We just did a double engine overhaul and some other avionics work. I'm hoping to have a year or two with minimal spending.
 
N747JB said:
:rofl::rofl::rofl: did he just say minimal spending??? :rofl::rofl:
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"Hope" being the key word! :D

I have a laundry list of projects I want to work on for plane improvements, but those are mostly low-cost things that I can do. We addressed a lot of things with the engine overhaul, and that was one of those "good" annuals (meaning a good sum of work). So we'll see what the next one brings. I'm sure they'll find more wrong with it again.
 
Ted, What was the avionics shop you used for the 310, I remember you were vary happy with them
 
tmyers said:
Ted, What was the avionics shop you used for the 310, I remember you were vary happy with them
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I used Twin Lakes Avionics at 8A7 in North Carolina. Robbie is great to deal with, doesn't try to oversell you (actually he's typically tried to sell me less than I wanted). It's about 300 nm one-way from here, though, which makes it a bit less than convenient. Their prices are quite reasonable.

They also had donated the labor for the Aspen install to Cloud Nine, so we wanted to go back and give them some paid work. But we wouldn't have gone back if it wasn't worth the trip. :)
 
tmyers said:
My avionics guru tells me to not be in a hurry for the ADS-B out. He figures there will be price wars on this stuff as the 2020 deadline approaches.
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Who is your guru?

I just had a chat with Jack Muskgrave about it
 
In my case my plan to upgrade my 430 to a W soon and to take advantage of garmin's trade in program for my 330 at a later date was the best option.
 
The 177 has no existing installed WAAS so it may not be a good time.
 
I'm in no hurry for the ADSB-out, but it is on my radar. I'd rather couple it to an ADSB-in solution for functionality and hull value. I certainly won't wait until the last minute, the whole fleet is going to need changing in the last six months if I know my fellow pilots.
 
What do you guys know about the Trig TT31? The description lists it as "Certified 1090ES ADS-B Out", and it appears to be much less expensive than competing products.
 
Challenged said:
What do you guys know about the Trig TT31? The description lists it as "Certified 1090ES ADS-B Out", and it appears to be much less expensive than competing products.
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Needs a WAAS GPS position signal... So the TT31 is the transmitter portion of the system but it needs position data from a WAAS GPS to comply withthe 2020 requirements


Some units are a standalone ADS-B out transmitter and have built in WAAS GPS Receiver.

Some units are a standalone ADS-B out transmitter but require a connection to a WAAS GPS signal (no built in GPS)

Some are ADS-B In & Out, which need a compatible display to show traffic data, and a WAAS GPS signal for the ADS-B out.


When you read a system discription that has the word "diversity" in there, that means the ADS-B tansceiver has top and bottom mounted fuselage antennas. The improves coverage as the system can interrogate other ADS-B out systems and display traffic similar to a high $$$$$ TCAS (Traffic Collission Avoidance System)
 
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Does the GPS source have to be IFR certified or anything, or is something like a 496 fine?
 
Keep in mind that your plane is not going to be grounded by 2020 if you do not have ADS-B out. You do not need ADS-B out for class D air space or below 10,000 feet. Most of the airport you probaly fly are in class D airspace, check it out. AVGAS at class C, B airports is very expensive when compared to those in class D. With AVGAS prices already at $10/gal at class C, D airports I don't think you will be flying into them by 2020.

José
 
Answering my own question (according to the Trig site): "The GPS receiver used must be an IFR certified receiver. Although that GPS is not required to be WAAS capable..."
 
Piloto said:
Keep in mind that your plane is not going to be grounded by 2020 if you do not have ADS-B out. You do not need ADS-B out for class D air space or below 10,000 feet. Most of the airport you probaly fly are in class D airspace, check it out. AVGAS at class C, B airports is very expensive when compared to those in class D. With AVGAS prices already at $10/gal at class C, D airports I don't think you will be flying into them by 2020.

José
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Problem is I fly probably 1/4 of my flights in class C or above 10,000. I'll definitely be upgrading. One of the reasons for upgrading just isn't just meeting an FAA requirement. I'm a believer that the technology should be in my panel, not on some type of portable device on my kneeboard. I don't think the FAA is ever going to allow some iPad to be used for the 2020 mandate, so I might as well start saving now. It makes for a safer aircraft and increases the value of the aircraft. I do think I'm in the minority though. As stated above, I think most people will either sell off their aircraft or let them rot. It's hard enough just to keep aircraft maintained these days let alone spend additional thousands on an FAA mandated upgrade.
 
Velocity173 said:
Problem is I fly probably 1/4 of my flights in class C or above 10,000. I'll definitely be upgrading. One of the reasons for upgrading just isn't just meeting an FAA requirement. I'm a believer that the technology should be in my panel, not on some type of portable device on my kneeboard. I don't think the FAA is ever going to allow some iPad to be used for the 2020 mandate, so I might as well start saving now. It makes for a safer aircraft and increases the value of the aircraft. I do think I'm in the minority though. As stated above, I think most people will either sell off their aircraft or let them rot. It's hard enough just to keep aircraft maintained these days let alone spend additional thousands on an FAA mandated upgrade.
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I'm with you there. I don't want restrictions on where I cannot go.
 
I am putting a 650 in next month. I have decided to put the gtx330es in at the same time. A very small reason is the mandate. I want the benefits of ads-b now (ok, it won't be now where I live since the ground stations aren't up yet in my area). The sad thing is that to get the traffic on the 650 will take an additional 3+k part. It ia my understanding that I should get good traffic with the stratus if I have the ads-b out.

Jim
 
They desperately need to let WAAS capable handhelds drive these systems. That would cut the cost by big $$$, with no meaningful loss in system effectiveness.
 
kyleb said:
They desperately need to let WAAS capable handhelds drive these systems. That would cut the cost by big $$$, with no meaningful loss in system effectiveness.
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Not by that much. The ADS-B transceivers with the built in GPS are only about $700ish more. There is no need for a panel mount $10k GPS.
 
bnt83 said:
Not by that much. The ADS-B transceivers with the built in GPS are only about $700ish more. There is no need for a panel mount $10k GPS.
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Point me to one, I must have missed it.
 
bnt83 said:
I'm with you there. I don't want restrictions on where I cannot go.
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Budget limitations is a stronger force than any ruling. I learned this long time ago.

José
 
Wait, I am now confused.

I thought the requirement was you have to be capable of ADS-B out. I was not aware, I had to have a panel mounted display for ADS-B in.


I was going to use the Stratus and IPAD to cover in (I am VFR), and buy one of the magic boxes with an imbedded WAAS GPS Chip to cover the out.

something like this:

[FONT=.HelveticaNeueUI]http://www.freeflightsystems.com/[/FONT]

So far prices I have seen for the out are around $4k.


Am I incorrect?
 
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Challenged said:
Answering my own question (according to the Trig site): "The GPS receiver used must be an IFR certified receiver. Although that GPS is not required to be WAAS capable..."
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Trig sells to the entire world. ADSB outside the US doesn't require WAAS. Technically, ADSB inside the US doesn't require WAAS either, but the position source must meet criteria specified in AC 20-165A. As a practical matter, it means the source will be WAAS. I am not aware of any position sources available on the market today or announced to be available in the future that are not WAAS.
 
Topper said:
I am putting a 650 in next month. I have decided to put the gtx330es in at the same time. A very small reason is the mandate. I want the benefits of ads-b now (ok, it won't be now where I live since the ground stations aren't up yet in my area). The sad thing is that to get the traffic on the 650 will take an additional 3+k part. It ia my understanding that I should get good traffic with the stratus if I have the ads-b out.

Jim
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Why do you plan on installing a mode S transponder? You will need one if you plan on flying above 18,000 MSL, but otherwise you won't.
 
I just wanted to keep sharing information I find on this. According to the TT31 installation manual (dated March 2012):

The TT31 transponder can be connected to the following GPS units to form the basis of a 14 CFR 91.227 compliant ADS-B installation:

  • Freeflight 1201 & 1204 WAAS/GPS Sensors
  • NexNav MINI & NexNav MAX WAAS/GPS Sensors
  • Garmin GNS 400W/500W series

I'm guessing the Garmin GNS 400W/500W was crossed out, because maybe they weren't certified as an ADS-B out GPS source at the time of the writing of the manual. Are they now?

The NexNav MINI appears to have a retail price of about $5,775 (unconfirmed, via press release), and the FreeFlight 1201 looks like it can be had for about $3,000.

So TT31 ($2750) + FreeFlight 1201 ($3000) = $5750 for certified ADS-B out solution.

Anyone know of any cheaper, end to end solutions?
 
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If one already has a GTN650/750, then the addition of a GDL88 is $4000. Same for if one has a GNS430W/530W. A GDL88 with a built in WAAS GPS including the antenna is close to $5500.
 
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