ADS-B Out and Passive Radar Homing Missile

Shepherd said:
Maybe interesting, but flying my PA-17 into KPOU on Tuesday, they didn't seem to be able to see me on the radar on my 5 mile straight in final (their request).
After asking all the other planes if they could see me, they told everything else in the pattern to circle until I was on the ground.
I had the same thing happen flying into KDXR and KPOU in the J3.
Are little cloth planes invisible to modern radar?
Any tower guys watching who can shed light on this?
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They make inexpensive radar reflectors for small boats, specifically to make it more likely for them to be seen by ships with radar, to reduce the chances of them being run over. Basically a bunch of intersecting disks of foil, to create corner traps. Betting that one could work in a small plane. Also betting that POU controllers/tower might be willing to test such a device with you, after their inability to see your pa-17 recently.
 
Albany Tom said:
They make inexpensive radar reflectors for small boats, specifically to make it more likely for them to be seen by ships with radar, to reduce the chances of them being run over. Basically a bunch of intersecting disks of foil, to create corner traps.
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So, you are saying we should carry a bunch of these and throw them out the window as decoys when the missiles get launched?
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Velocity173 said:
But like Evil and I said, the Mode 4 reply light has nothing to do with getting locked up. The Radar Warning Receiver is what provides that. Two separate systems on two separate freqs.

It’s easily Googled but military Mode 1 and 2 are non encrypted modes. Mode 1 is only two digits max number is also 7 just like a 4096. It’s selectable and is adjusted by time based in the Air Tasking Order (ATO). Generally we’d forget to update it and no one cares. Mode 2 is like Mode 3A but varies by aircraft if it’s non adjustable or not. Some have a sleeve over it and can be adjusted. Some like in my pic above are not adjustable and are hardwired into the system. Skipping mode 3A onto 4, it’s an encrypted mode that takes an interrogation from a friendly military interrogator (not to be confused with fire control radar) and spits out a confirmation in the form of a green light. There might be transponders that show a hostile interrogation but I haven’t used those. A bad interrogation (fill dropped) might show as a caution but there’s no indication of who (friendly or foe) that caution goes with. Mode 5 is brand new and became the standard last year. Never used it myself, maybe Evil can describe.

RWR is a whole separate system that is a passive warning device that gets radar hits or “spikes” from different friendly or hostile radar sites. Old school RWR just puts a blip or line on the screen and an annoying tone in the helmet. Newer stuff will show the type (SA-3, SA-8, ZSU, etc) system on the display and a computerized voice to alert the pilot. Based on the various systems, crew action on contact might be to pop chaff, flares, or if using DIRCM (R2D2) you disable the missile with a laser.

Below you can see the black RWR antennas on the nose of the Black Hawk…disregard the completely unnecessary nose art. The second pic is an Afghan, correction now Taliban Black Hawk. Notice something missing? ;)
View attachment 99738 View attachment 99739
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Those look like speakers. Why am I thinking of Oddball’s tank going into battle in Kelly’s Hero’s
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
If you have ADS-B out, you already have a mode C or S transponder transmitting. How would adding a second transmitter make a difference?
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Dual band threat. Honestly, the Aim-9 is overkill. Intelligence says that Dam Cryder will be using a significantly less costly Rasberry-Pi integrated Stratus-guided thing with model rocket engines and steering with model aircraft servos. It should still be able to catch 6PC's Grumman... and anyone flying at Flying Oaks. It has the AI ability to discriminate against those flying without certificates.
 
qchen said:
An AIM-9 missile modified with a stratux ADS-B receiver is my biggest nightmare.

The hostile aircraft do not need to enable any radar. Or have any radar at the first place. The pilot will open special version of foreflight on his iPad, and tap on the plane icon that represents your Cessna to fire the missile without even needing a LOS to the target. It will be impossible to evade since the IR guidance only kicks in at the very last seconds.

Such system will allow virtually all GA aircraft to carry and fire wi-fi and Bluetooth enabled missiles, provided that the STC is within the W&B limit. Shouldn’t that be a concern for you?
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Yo, everybody. Go back to the OP. He edited it. There is a picture of this
 
luvflyin said:
Those look like speakers. Why am I thinking of Oddball’s tank going into battle in Kelly’s Hero’s
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Those “speakers” are inboard of the RWR antennas. Those are Electro Optical Missile Sensors (EOMS).

Notice the Afghan Black Hawk didn’t have those either. Again, the difference between what Americans fly over there and what we gave to the Afghans. Not a version of the Black Hawk I would want to fly in combat. Same goes for their MI-17s and their C-130s. The difference is in the details.
 
Velocity173 said:
Negative. I slip past the border between Mexico and the US all the time.They can’t touch me.
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Just remembered. You said something earlier about yours had been used to run drugs. Did you pick it up at an auction of confiscated airplanes? Or did the dude who sold it to you tell you
 
Velocity173 said:
Those “speakers” are inboard of the RWR antennas. Those are Electro Optical Missile Sensors (EOMS).

Notice the Afghan Black Hawk didn’t have those either. Again, the difference between what Americans fly over there and what we gave to the Afghans. Not a version of the Black Hawk I would want to fly in combat.
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Yeah, I saw that.
 
Velocity173 said:
Negative. I slip past the border between Mexico and the US all the time.They can’t touch me.
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Seriously though, it gets back to my original post. Lots of different radar systems in use in the US and far too many factors to say if a particular GA aircraft is invisible.
 
luvflyin said:
Yo, everybody. Go back to the OP. He edited it. There is a picture of this
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I'm never sure how to take those kinds of nonsense posts:
  • A genuinely-paranoid survivalist living in a back-yard bunker.
  • A cynical troll who just likes to stir things up.
  • A spammer who's going to try to see us something in their next post.
 
David Megginson said:
I'm never sure how to take those kinds of nonsense posts:
  • A genuinely-paranoid survivalist living in a back-yard bunker.
  • A cynical troll who just likes to stir things up.
  • A spammer who's going to try to see us something in their next post.
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:stirpot: and it worked. I’m havin fun.
 
It totally makes sense that someone would go after a Cessna 150 instead of, say, an Airbus A-380.
 
Albany Tom said:
They make inexpensive radar reflectors for small boats, specifically to make it more likely for them to be seen by ships with radar, to reduce the chances of them being run over. Basically a bunch of intersecting disks of foil, to create corner traps. Betting that one could work in a small plane. Also betting that POU controllers/tower might be willing to test such a device with you, after their inability to see your pa-17 recently.
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Nah! I want to stay stealth. It will bring more money when I decide to sell the plane.
Maybe Martha Lunken would be interested?
 
luvflyin said:
Yo, everybody. Go back to the OP. He edited it. There is a picture of this
Click to expand...

David Megginson said:
I'm never sure how to take those kinds of nonsense posts:
  • A genuinely-paranoid survivalist living in a back-yard bunker.
  • A cynical troll who just likes to stir things up.
  • A spammer who's going to try to see us something in their next post.
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luvflyin said:
:stirpot: and it worked. I’m havin fun.
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:) Hopefully obvious, but while I was replying to your post, I was referring to the OP.
 
Shepherd said:
Nah! I want to stay stealth. It will bring more money when I decide to sell the plane.
Maybe Martha Lunken would be interested?
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:) I get it. I wasn't too concerned about being in the way of anything IFR where I normally fly. That is, until I went to a controller presentation at ALB a couple of years ago, and they casually mentioned that they sometimes issue clearances at 3000. I'm the young kid in the group in this area, so I didn't want to raise my hand and say "you know that's a VFR altitude without recommended direction/altitude if you're more than a mile or so from the river, right?"

Your post was an eye opener to me. No idea if Albany's traffic radar is any different than POU, but your new plane and a cub have very similar construction, and I'm flying around without a transponder, too.
 
I wondered how they would react if I fired a flare out the window.
Then I remembered I fly a high wing airplane.
OOPPPS!
 
qchen said:
An AIM-9 missile modified with a stratux ADS-B receiver is my biggest nightmare.

The hostile aircraft do not need to enable any radar. Or have any radar at the first place. The pilot will open special version of foreflight on his iPad, and tap on the plane icon that represents your Cessna to fire the missile without even needing a LOS to the target. It will be impossible to evade since the IR guidance only kicks in at the very last seconds.

Such system will allow virtually all GA aircraft to carry and fire wi-fi and Bluetooth enabled missiles, provided that the STC is within the W&B limit. Shouldn’t that be a concern for you?
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No.
 
qchen said:
Such system will allow virtually all GA aircraft to carry and fire wi-fi and Bluetooth enabled missiles, provided that the STC is within the W&B limit.
Click to expand...
Wait.
People are going to arm themselves with missiles to shoot down random other aircraft - but are going to comply with FAA paperwork nonsense and weight and balance?
 
luvflyin said:
He didn’t say aluminum birds. He said birds. They can show on Radar. Flocks of big ones can give a pretty fair target. Note the ‘radar-observed’ below in this from the Controllers Handbook.


2−1−23. BIRD ACTIVITY INFORMATION
a. Issue advisory information on pilot-reported, tower-observed, or radar-observed and pilot-verified bird activity. Include position, species or size of birds, if known, course of flight, and altitude. Do this for at least 15 minutes after receipt of such information from pilots or from adjacent facilities unless visual observation or subsequent reports reveal the activity is no longer a factor.
EXAMPLE−
“Flock of geese, one o’clock, seven miles, northbound, last reported at four thousand.”
“Flock of small birds, southbound along Mohawk River, last reported at three thousand.”
“Numerous flocks of ducks, vicinity Lake Winnebago, altitude unknown.”
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No tower/approach is going to issue birds in the vicinty unless its verified by a pilot. It clearly says so in the blueb you randomly googled.

Its not about size, but reflectivity. Again please research how radar works then make informed posts.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Wait.
People are going to arm themselves with missiles to shoot down random other aircraft - but are going to comply with FAA paperwork nonsense and weight and balance?
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I think you spotted the troll there. That answers my earlier question about whether we were dealing with a paranoid survivalist, a troll, or a spammer.
 
Is no one else concerned about the obvious Canadian influence and involvement in this?
 
pfarber said:
No tower/approach is going to issue birds in the vicinty unless its verified by a pilot. It clearly says so in the blueb you randomly googled.

Its not about size, but reflectivity. Again please research how radar works then make informed posts.
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Yup. Radar observed and Pilot verified. I said nothing that contradicted that. As far as the rest of it I’ll keep it short and refer you to post # 33. I did ATC for 30 years, 26 of it using Radar. No brother though.
 
pfarber said:
No tower/approach is going to issue birds in the vicinty unless its verified by a pilot. It clearly says so in the blueb you randomly googled.

Its not about size, but reflectivity. Again please research how radar works then make informed posts.
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Well that’s another former controller who didn’t need to Google anything. Pilot verification has nothing to do with the original statement anyway. The fact is, radar can pick up birds. You don’t need a pilot to verify physics.

Also, size is a factor in reflectivity. All other things being equal, larger aircraft reflect radar energy more than smaller. Anyone who has worked a C-5 on a PAR can attest to that.
 
luvflyin said:
I heard they was working on an implant to put in their Geese so they could control and target them remotely.
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They’re still upset over that 1812 “Hey, as long as we’re at war let’s take Canada” thing.
 
Velocity173 said:
Well that’s another former controller who didn’t need to Google anything. Pilot verification has nothing to do with the original statement anyway. The fact is, radar can pick up birds. You don’t need a pilot to verify physics.

Also, size is a factor in reflectivity. All other things being equal, larger aircraft reflect radar energy more than smaller. Anyone who has worked a C-5 on a PAR can attest to that.
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It’s all that juicy stuff in the bird. Just like Radar sees the juicy stuff in clouds. Maybe bone reflects to, I dunno.

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How many times have you been talking to ATC and they give you a traffic report "unconfirmed" "type unknown" "altitude unknown" or "not talking to them."

None of those have ADSB, and ATC still knows they're there.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Wait.
People are going to arm themselves with missiles to shoot down random other aircraft - but are going to comply with FAA paperwork nonsense and weight and balance?
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You can sling a 100lb bomb under a 65 HP J3 Cub and still be in the green for weight and balance.
The Civil Air Patrol did it during WWII.

There is a guy on YouTube who can make you an electric Gatling gun for any caliber (I saw the .233 and 7.62 caliber versions) that will bolt up to any high wing plane.
Of course you would need one for each wing, to maintain balance.
 
Took the Velocity up today. ATC said they had a good primary on me. Guess my drug running days are over. :(
 
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