ADS-B by 2020?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Chesterspal, May 8, 2019.

  1. Chesterspal

    Chesterspal Pre-Flight

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    Looking at a single with Mode C but not with ADS-B out as will be required by 2020.

    The seller states it's not an issue unless you fly within 60NM of a commercial airport. I cannot see how one will not find themselves in such a situation here in the Northeast if even by accident.

    How costly are these systems with getting them installed by the appropriate shop?

    Can anyone provide a list of what coms MUST be in a single for VFR use at least as far as what is now required and for this 2020 deadline, please?

    Thanks
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2019
  2. GeorgeC

    GeorgeC En-Route PoA Supporter

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    91.225. Short version: anywhere you need mode C now. Decent 1090 solutions start at around $5k installed.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2019
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  3. PilotRPI

    PilotRPI Line Up and Wait

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    My buddy just got a quote for a wingtip system in his warrior for under $3k. I agree, can’t see flying in New England near Boston without it, but I happen to fly near busy areas.
     
  4. mondtster

    mondtster Pattern Altitude

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    Com radios required? None unless desiring to enter certain airspace which requires two way communication. This is not changing in 2020.

    That seller doesn't know what they're talking about. ADS-B will be required anywhere a mode C transponder is currently required.
     
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  5. Doug Reid

    Doug Reid Pre-takeoff checklist

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    ADS-B out will only be required in the new 91.225 airspace. If you stay clear of class b, class c and fly under 10,000 feet, you can get by without ADS-B out.

    Look up a map of the new 91.225 airspace...

    Also, you have a lot of options for adding ADS-B out.

    Skybeacon is probably the least expensive.
     
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  6. Huckster79

    Huckster79 Line Up and Wait

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    Depending on your mission possible mute point... I don’t even have mode c and don’t much care... The class C I may want to go to every once in great while will let ya in if ya ask even without mode c... a lotta gas money for a dohicky that I can live without.... others not so much...
     
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  7. Chesterspal

    Chesterspal Pre-Flight

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    Agree if you live in the sticks, as this seller does, upgrading is not required. I plan to travel around the US after completing my PPL. Got the impression the seller accidentally let this factoid slip out when I pressed them on my knowing any issues with the plane that were not yet discussed.

    Spending $5,000 is kind of a big deal on what is an under $30,000 plane. Now, I need to go back and look at the other planes I'm interested in to see if they are updated.
     
  8. Doug Reid

    Doug Reid Pre-takeoff checklist

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    You should not have to spend $5000 . Skybeacon is $1895.00 and you can install in less than an hour.
     
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  9. lancie00

    lancie00 Line Up and Wait

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    it all depends on what is currently installed. If there is a newer transponder that you think will last, then I'd just go with a skybeacon and install myself. If the transponder looks to be on it's last legs, you might be better off spending the $5000 on a new Garmin GTX345 transponder with ADSB out. If you're looking to get your IFR and want GPS, then maybe an Garmin GNX375 which includes both GPS navigation and transponder with ADSB out. Unless you need comm radios too, then you need to look at a different plane because nav/comm with GPS, transponder and ADSB out costs more than the air frame of most small singles.
     
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  10. NordicDave

    NordicDave Line Up and Wait

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    Garmin's GNX-375 is the hot new transponder. ADS-B IN/OUT and GPS. Perfect solution for older planes when touching the existing audio panel and radios is not necessary. One of the most expensive Avionics upgrades is the audio panel. This solution gives older planes modern GPS, full ADS-B and FIS-B traffic and weather on the 375, leaving the current audio/comms stack in place.

    -David
     
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  11. Chesterspal

    Chesterspal Pre-Flight

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    Maybe I do not know th proper terminology when I refer to "coms", so let me try to clarify further.

    When looking at an older plane for sale, what should it have as far as radios and transponders to be FAA legal now and for the foreseeable future?

    Also, what such equipment can I remove and install myself and what needs to be done by a certified avionics person?
     
  12. zaitcev

    zaitcev En-Route

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    The GNX 375 is absurdly expensive: $8k just the device. I'm quite happy with GTX 335 that I installed for compliance purposes, even though it does not get me the traffic that GNX 375 would. It was $3k together with the antenna.
     
  13. mondtster

    mondtster Pattern Altitude

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    No radios are required to be “FAA legal” unless you decide to fly into airspace which requires it.

    For VFR flying, a single com radio and a transponder will get you into any airspace you can operate in.

    As far as what you can remove or install legally yourself, that would be nothing unless by remove and install you’re referring to sliding the radio in and out of the tray it resides in. More is possible if working under the supervision of a mechanic.
     
  14. Chesterspal

    Chesterspal Pre-Flight

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    Thanks. Looked into this just now and a more realistic figure is a bit south of $2500 with the unit, the install, the programming, the paper work and the test fight by the installer. There is a $500 FAA rebate if done by October 2019 so you can basically get your installers time paid for if you act now.

    The units are back-ordered at least 6 weeks or so or at least they were.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2019
  15. NordicDave

    NordicDave Line Up and Wait

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    The GNX-375 is expensive if just an ADS-B transponder is needed. However it's very fair if the plane also needs a modern GPS. A GPS with Nav/Comm is $10K plus. If the radios and audio panel are good, then the GNX-375 is the best option.

    I'm a big fan of getting ADS-B IN/OUT with traffic and weather displayed on the panel. The magic of ADS-B is seeing other traffic. I still use an iPad, but love getting this data on a certified panel powered device.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2019
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  16. lancie00

    lancie00 Line Up and Wait

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    Here is where you need ADSB out.
    [​IMG]
    If you plan on flying in this airspace, you need to have, at minimum, ADSB out. The cheapest is probably the Skybeacon at $1900 and you can install. You may also need 2 way radio communication depending on which airspace you're flying in.

    If you're not going to be in any of this airspace, you don't need any communication radios, transponder or ADSB.

    From your're earlier post, you say that you want to travel the country. If you plan on staying VFR only, then you will want a decent nav/comm radio (communications and VOR) and probably ADSB. Which ADSB radio depends on the transponder you have. If it's good, I'd go Skybeacon for $1900. If it's bad, I'd go Garmin GTX345 for about $4000.

    If you are considering IFR then you would want an airplane with at minimum one nav/comm with glideslope (communications radio with VOR) and an IFR WAAS GPS. This is one that can be used for IFR flights and provides the WAAS signal required for the ADSB out. The IFR GPS is the expensive radio with high installation costs. If you find a plane with junk radios and transponder, it may cost $20,000 to get what you want. (nav/comm with GPS and ADSB out) The last quote I got was $16,000 for a Garmin GTN650 installed and that doesn't include ADSB. There are cheaper GPS's out there but they're getting old and are losing serviceability. If you find a plane with good nav/comms but no GPS or ADSB then look at the Garmin GNX375. It gives you both for $8000 plus installation costs.

    All of these radios can be installed by you under the proper supervision of either an A&P or avionics installer. It's my understanding that the GPS must be tested by an avionics shop prior to use under IFR. You just have to find someone who will let you do the work.
     
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  17. murphey

    murphey Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    The SkyBeacon - $2000 (rounding up to make the arithmetic easier)
    Stratux - $150 - it's a Raspberry Pi computer with Wifi built in and 2 SDRs (software defined radios) for ADS-B IN. No installation, you can buy one on Amazon already built or put it together yourself (takes about 15 min or less).
    Tablet of some sort with software that will receive the ADS-B from the Stratux
    Do not confuse the Stratux with Appaero's Stratus for many $100s.

    So far, about $2500 and you're legal for 2020.

    Now, if you are not interested in an instrument rating, this will do fine. But, if you plan to get the instrument, then the Garmin 175, right now, is probably the most cost-effective GPS out there. $4200 over the counter and whatever the installation costs are (probably under $1000). So you're still under $10K and compliant with everything.

    The Garmin 375 GPS/Transponder/ADS-B OUT requires a Garmin dealer to buy and install. More money for the box, more money for the install.

    Neighbor in the hangar down the ramp is a major airline maintenance chief and avionics dude, so he'll install the 175 for me for a flat rate, (plus dinner for him & his wife at a very nice restaurant) since I already have the GPS antenna installed.

    Yes, the pricing is absurd for spam cans not worth more than $40K or so, but this is the reality these days with the FAA mandates. Doesn't matter whether you believe ADS-B is worth it or not, it's the law.
     
  18. murphey

    murphey Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    You can remove anything. Of course installation is a different issue.

    Example - I had a radio go bad. Since it can be removed from the front and slid out from the tray, I removed it, sent it off to the shop, got fixed with the paperwork, and I slid the radio back into the tray. Swapping with no change or alterations of existing whatever - that's legal.

    However, because I'm not an A&P, I could not perform the initial installation of the radio of new wiring, new tray, and so on.
     
  19. Stan Cooper

    Stan Cooper Line Up and Wait

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    I installed a Garmin Aera 660 GPS (not IFR certified) and GDL39R ADS-B receiver for ADS-B IN, and a Garmin GDL 82 978 MHz UAT with built-in WAAS GPS receiver which works with my existing GTX 327 transponder for ADS-B OUT. It was the cheapest way to meet the 2020 mandate that met my personal requirements (no international flights and ADS-B and TIS-B traffic displayed on the Aera 660).

    In my case, my LSA is Experimental so I can perform the installations myself and I have an LSA Repairman - Inspection certificate so I can sign off my annual condition inspections.
     
  20. asicer

    asicer En-Route

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    Only ADS-B Out is legally required. ADS-B In is legally optional. And I believe the FAA rebate is still in effect. So it's actually $1500 to be legal.
     
  21. Chesterspal

    Chesterspal Pre-Flight

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    Thanks. This is very helpful. Seems the best and lowest initial cost option for a small plane is that SkyBeacon unit.

    These other items I can do more research on when the time comes.
     
  22. mondtster

    mondtster Pattern Altitude

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    Best is debatable. Lowest cost is true. Remember that the requirements for a mode C transponder do not go away so the Skybeacon unit will only be a partial solution. If you buy an airplane with an old, junk transponder you’ll still have an airplane with an old, junk transponder that you need to maintain come 2020.

    You really should keep researching a bit to decide what you’re going to do a little longer term. Otherwise you run the risk of spending money twice. If you’re not going to be flying in airspace that requires ADS-B while training, the best choice might be to wait on everything and make a better plan later.
     
  23. JC150

    JC150 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Nothing wrong with 978 UAT. You don't need 1090
     
  24. dans2992

    dans2992 En-Route

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    If you’re using your plane for a $100 hamburger run out in the sticks, yeah you can get away without ADSB.

    If it’s a traveling tool - get it.
     
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  25. danhagan

    danhagan Pattern Altitude

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    Check Uavionix.com for wing tip and/or tail light ADS-B OUT. Only need to connect to current power and use your phone to setup. Doing it to mine soon (tail light), for experimental about $1650 and mine can be done by a mechanic (not requiring avionics shop). Currently using a SCOUT for ADS-B IN.

    Down side: have to leave NAV lights on all the time unless you run a new power cable to that single light.
     
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  26. Crashnburn

    Crashnburn Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Not a bad idea for NAV lights on all the time, esp. if they are fluorescent or LED.
     
  27. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    Unless rules have changed, an IFR GPS is not a requirement for IFR operation. Good idea? Yes. Required by law? No..
     
  28. lancie00

    lancie00 Line Up and Wait

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    You are correct, an IFR GPS is NOT required for IFR flight. However, if he's looking at planes and is thinking about getting his IFR, he would definitely want to consider one with GPS already installed or be prepared to buy GPS. It's getting harder and harder to find approaches that you only need VOR or ILS to fly. Most need DME, ADF (both are almost dead) or equivalent (GPS) to fly.
     
  29. kyleb

    kyleb En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Why? How many privately owned recips leave the US? One in ten?
     
  30. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    Well it is a IFR certified WAAS GPS as well...
     
  31. murphey

    murphey Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Which drives the G5, too.
     
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  32. dans2992

    dans2992 En-Route

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    We’re not taking about leaving the US, we’re taking about using any airports near any Class B or C airspace, or climbing above 10,000 ft.
     
  33. chemgeek

    chemgeek Line Up and Wait

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    Wha?

    ADS-B will be required anywhere you need mode C now, including above 10,000 feet, for example. There are many good solutions, ranging from $2-3K to $7K installed depending on options: out-only, in+out, UAT or 1090ES, piggyback on existing WAAS or stand-alone WAAS, etc. What you might want depends on how you fly: VFR, IFR, etc. IFR pilots may seriously consider a panel ADS-B in solution, and not just ADS-B out. But like many answers, it depends...

    COMs are not required except as required to comply with FARs for the flight undertaken. In Class B, C, D, airspace, communication is normally required. (I say "normally" because it IS POSSIBLE to fly in to class D airspace without COM and use the light gun, but it's kind of like being a skunk at a tea party. Been there, done that with a com failure...it's not something you should normally plan to do.) Practically speaking, you should have at least one COM that can communicate on the appropriate channels, i.e. not an ancient 360 channel COM.

    ADS-B options can be confusing. Of course, you would know the COM regs as a current, certificated pilot...yes? ;)
     
  34. chemgeek

    chemgeek Line Up and Wait

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    In addition, any new ADS-B install may require compliance with 91.411 and/or 91.413, a.k.a static and transponder checks.
     
  35. JOhnH

    JOhnH Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I'm guessing that seller knows exactly what he is talking about. That is probably part of the reason why he is selling.
     
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  36. mondtster

    mondtster Pattern Altitude

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    No he doesn’t. Assuming the OP quoted what the seller said correctly, he has no clue if he thinks you have to stay more than 60 miles away from a major airport.
     
  37. zaitcev

    zaitcev En-Route

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    Maybe something was lost in translation. The diameter of Class B veil is 60 nm, which means non-compliant aircraft have to stay 30 nm away from its center.
     
  38. murphey

    murphey Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    "I'm guessing the seller knows exactly what needs to be installed/upgraded. That is probably the reason he's selling"
    FTFY
     
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  39. mondtster

    mondtster Pattern Altitude

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    That had crossed my mind, but it's not how it was written so who knows where the misinterpretation lies. There are enough people out there who seem to be making the ads-b rules up as they go along rather than actually reading the requirements it wouldn't surprise me to hear of someone thinking you can't go closer than 60 miles from a bigger airport.
     
  40. Justin M

    Justin M Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Here's a video by @martin-pauly about ADS-B.