ADS-B Buying Decision

John, what in my statement brings you to the conclusion that my ADS_B Out is not configured properly?
It is highly likely that your ADS-B Out is not configured properly. It needs to be setup so that the GBT (Ground Based Transceiver - AKA ADS-B Ground Station) knows your ADS-B In capability, otherwise, you get nada from the GBT.
Click to expand...
 
winrose46 said:
John, what in my statement brings you to the conclusion that my ADS_B Out is not configured properly?
Click to expand...

It could be that I misinterpreted this statement:

For those on the fence about ADS_B traffic, I could see only 30 % of the traffic during the past 15 hours I have flown with ADS_B out.
Click to expand...

If you meant that the traffic showed up on your ADS-B In display, but you couldn't locate most of it visually, then I would take back my comment. I rarely see any GA traffic when it is outside of 2 miles of my location and most traffic is called at 10 miles out by ATC. So if the traffic misses me by more than 2 miles, I rarely see it myself.

On the other hand, if you meant that the traffic could not be displayed on the ADS-B In device or iPad, then you probably have a configuration error.
 
I ment that visually I could not see the traffic indicated on the display. That does concern me because I thought that see and avoid was OK; however, I may even go with a temporary fix (until my wallet recovers from some significant maintenance costs) with the SkyGuard portable unit to put ADS_B out in my C 172. The quote for the ADS_B out capability in the trainer was 8.2K which after putting it in the Bonanza a month ago is not going to happen in the near future.
 
winrose46 said:
I ment that visually I could not see the traffic indicated on the display. That does concern me because I thought that see and avoid was OK; however, I may even go with a temporary fix (until my wallet recovers from some significant maintenance costs) with the SkyGuard portable unit to put ADS_B out in my C 172. The quote for the ADS_B out capability in the trainer was 8.2K which after putting it in the Bonanza a month ago is not going to happen in the near future.
Click to expand...

Gene,

For a trainer, I would consider adding the FreeFlight Ranger package. It is just under $4000 and includes its own built in certified GPS for a position source.
 
In talking to my avonics shop, they indicated that the FAA is saying that a lot of the false data transmissions and other incorrect ADS_B Out traffic is caused by non TSO'ed equipment. I sent him your info and the link to the company's web site. Thanks,
 
John Collins said:
This statement is not correct. TISB is only used to broadcast aircraft equipped with mode C transponders, detected by ground radar, and if there is a client requesting the service. TISB is not equivalent to ADS-B as there are several differences, the position is not as accurate, there is no GPS altitude, the aircraft identifier is not broadcast, and the broadcasts are very selective for client aircraft. TISB does not provide ADS-B targets but the ADSR service does rebroadcast these targets under special circumstances based on the capabilities of the client aircraft. For my GDL88 with a dual frequency receiver, the GBT doesn't broadcast ADSR on my behalf since I can receive these targets without the assistance of the GBT.
Click to expand...

Based on the FAA's TIS-B specs doc that I had read a while back, I seem to recall that the FAA grouped both broadcast of Mode C/S and ADS-R as part if the TIS-B service. If something has changed in that regard, I would appreciate a reference.

The GBT may filter transmissions based on the reported capability of the client, but the client would still have the full picture of identified aircraft. As I mentioned in a previous post, it appears that this design was done for the purpose of efficiency, and that is why I am skeptical that the FAA will suddenly elect to start blindly broadcasting traffic data.

Regardless, my original point was that TIS-B/ADS-R provides no more incentive at this time to install ADS-B Out than TIS-A provided to install Mode S. The real incentive, in my opinion, is the regulatory one which will require that most aircraft be so equipped starting on January 1, 2020.


JKG
 
I just purchased the iLevil SW (400 credit for replacement of iLevelMiniG). On my flight to KGON from KFDK I used the iLevil SW without any issues with Wing X; however, while FlyQ EFB worked with the iLevil from my house (seeing traffic), it did not see traffic on that flight. I have sent an email to FlyQ EFB asking them what could be the issue. I flew to KDAL and the FlyQ EFB worked well with the iLevil SW. Release 1.4 due in August will include support for more ADS_B in devices. I still prefer Wing X for two items: Traffic in Wing X has actual altitude and speed of conflicting aircraft and it also has a button that indicates the number of towers and the status of the ADS_B device. I lost signal to the iPad at least 4 times during my trip to KDAL.
 
Last edited:
I just flew from Frederick MD to Dallas Love field and the iLevil SW worked reasonably well. In the 16 or so hours of flying, the iLevel SW disconnected from the iPad 7 times. With FlyQ EFB there is no indication of whether the connection is still working other than the iPad airplane icon at the top of the screen. The Wing X program does display the power remaining on the iLevil SW as well as the ADS_B status and number of towers. Additionally switching between Wing X Pro and the FlyQ EFB apps would cause the apps to lose the flight plan and timer in the FlyQ EFB app. Turning on the airplane mode and the WIFI on permitted the charging from the aircraft to keep the iPad 3 powered up. My 7 hour flight to FL showed a decline in iPad battery to 20 percent with the airplane mode and wifi only kept the iPad battery up for the 8.5 hour trip to TX at above 90%. I will address my concerns regarding the two apps after I review the instructional videos to assure that errors in the apps are just operator error or reflect a more serious condition. A large percentage of my issues were operator error with the FlyQ EFB. Specifically I did not realize that I needed to pull down the icon to get the viewing options for the 2nd window.
 
Last edited:
Flew from Frederick MD down to West Palm Beach on Friday and returned on Sunday for instrument instruction. We had more than 6 hours of actual IFR so the effort was very good experience for my student. The FlyQ EFB app failed to display traffic multiple times and dropped the iLevel connection multiple times and I needed to reboot the app more than once. They announced a new version of the software to be available in August however that has not been released as of yesterday. I finally gave up and used Wing X Pro on both ipads (version 3 and mini with FlyQ EFB on the mini). In actual IFR I needed to have reliable data. I almost got to fly in Washington State and Alaska last week; however, I tore my quad in my left leg and just getting into the Bonanza this past weekend after 2 weeks was an adventure- there was no way I could get into a float plane after my accident with a set of steps. Now on my next trip to Seattle ....
 
Last edited:
Gene, I'm hoping to get my scheduled straightened out to start flying with you next week if possible (e-mail coming soon!). I also look forward to picking your brain on the various aviation applications and interfaces!
 
I've pulled the trigger and getting KT-74 installed in my Bonanza... If you go this route, prepare to do some groundwork for your shop, unless they have an experience, otherwise it can take way longer than you expect or would end up with a non-compliant installation.

For instance, you will have to install air pressure switch to provide reliable ground/air detection, and also if you use Garmin WAAS units, you will need to update your transponder software to the latest version (3.12) which has been released a few days ago.

It will work without all this stuff, but won't be compliant with 2020 mandate...
 
EugeneR said:
I've pulled the trigger and getting KT-74 installed in my Bonanza... If you go this route, prepare to do some groundwork for your shop, unless they have an experience, otherwise it can take way longer than you expect or would end up with a non-compliant installation.

For instance, you will have to install air pressure switch to provide reliable ground/air detection, and also if you use Garmin WAAS units, you will need to update your transponder software to the latest version (3.12) which has been released a few days ago.

It will work without all this stuff, but won't be compliant with 2020 mandate...
Click to expand...
I was under the impression that using GPS groundspeed for the ground/air detection was acceptable.
 
gismo said:
I was under the impression that using GPS groundspeed for the ground/air detection was acceptable.
Click to expand...

Nope. If you look at AC 2020-165 (http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC 20-165.pdf), you'll see the following paragraph:

Note 1: We recommend that any automatic air-ground determination
be more robust than just a simple comparison of ground speed to a
single threshold value. Field experience has shown that this method
can lead to false air-ground status.
Click to expand...
 
teejayevans said:
But ACs are not regulatory, just an advisory, so you don't have to implement it using the AC
Click to expand...

True, it is not regulatory. But you must then come up with a method that is satisfactory to the FAA and the FAA stated in the AC that it doesn't consider the GS by itself to be reliable.
 
I can see where they're coming from. A slow ground taxi speed can easily be attained in flight too. Given a strong enough headwind, our 150 can achieve a ground speed of zero. Should out avionics presume we've landed :)

How does the pressure switch know you're on the ground? It seems to me that air pressure is as meaningless as ground speed for determining if you on the ground.
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
I can see where they're coming from. A slow ground taxi speed can easily be attained in flight too. Given a strong enough headwind, our 150 can achieve a ground speed of zero. Should out avionics presume we've landed :)

How does the pressure switch know you're on the ground? It seems to me that air pressure is as meaningless as ground speed for determining if you on the ground.
Click to expand...

It is not clear to me exactly how the unit determines on ground status. It may be based solely on the airspeed switch or it could be augmented with other data from the GPS, IOW more than one source being used to determine ground status. I have asked the designers for an explanation.
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
I can see where they're coming from. A slow ground taxi speed can easily be attained in flight too. Given a strong enough headwind, our 150 can achieve a ground speed of zero. Should out avionics presume we've landed :)

How does the pressure switch know you're on the ground? It seems to me that air pressure is as meaningless as ground speed for determining if you on the ground.
Click to expand...
The "air pressure switch" is either tied into the pitot static system (another FAA regulatory hassle/NoNo) or it's directly sensing the airflow outside the aircraft.

I agree that groundspeed isn't infallible but I'd be surprised if such a switch was required by the FAA just because they recommend not using GPS groundspeed. The consequences of mistakenly indicating an on ground condition when flying slow enough into a stiff headwind to take the GS below the set threshold don't seem all that onerous to me unless you're talking about a balloon (in which case a pressure switch isn't going to work any better).

BTW, for an airplane with retractable gear, it's often possible to tie into the WOW (squat) switch for a true "on ground" indication and that could be easier to accomplish than an airspeed switch.
 
gismo said:
BTW, for an airplane with retractable gear, it's often possible to tie into the WOW (squat) switch for a true "on ground" indication and that could be easier to accomplish than an airspeed switch.
Click to expand...

I don't think so, unless there is a WOW already available behind the panel. With a Bonanza or a Baron, this is problematic and is a lot more work to hook up the switch, run new wires from the wing to the side panel to behind the panel. A simple pair of T's in the pitot and static lines accessed behind the ASI is easy.
 
John Collins said:
I don't think so, unless there is a WOW already available behind the panel. With a Bonanza or a Baron, this is problematic and is a lot more work to hook up the switch, run new wires from the wing to the side panel to behind the panel. A simple pair of T's in the pitot and static lines accessed behind the ASI is easy.
Click to expand...
It is problematic to tie into WOW on most Bonanzas and Barons but IIRC, in the Cessnas and maybe Pipers, it's easy.

Tying into the pitot static is likely physically easy but I know that the FAA has been pretty adamant that this cannot be done without a DER signoff or STC.
 
gismo said:
It is problematic to tie into WOW on most Bonanzas and Barons but IIRC, in the Cessnas and maybe Pipers, it's easy.

Tying into the pitot static is likely physically easy but I know that the FAA has been pretty adamant that this cannot be done without a DER signoff or STC.
Click to expand...

That doesn't represent a problem with the KT74 or Trig STC as it is included.
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
I can see where they're coming from. A slow ground taxi speed can easily be attained in flight too. Given a strong enough headwind, our 150 can achieve a ground speed of zero. Should out avionics presume we've landed :)

How does the pressure switch know you're on the ground? It seems to me that air pressure is as meaningless as ground speed for determining if you on the ground.
Click to expand...

The one that is used in Trig/BK STC is hooked up to the pitot/static system and triggers at around 38 knots which is above normal taxi speed and below stall speeds of all aircraft included in the STC. Very strong gusts can still trigger it on the ground but I suspect the software waits until the switch status is stable for several seconds before switching to a different mode.
 
winrose46 said:
A new transponder solution just was announced by L3. https://www.l-3avionics.com/ The price dropped to 6.8 K so I think I will get it for my C172.
Click to expand...

I saw a demo of that transponder at the Sporty's fly-in. Let me tell you... it is one cool unit! It is designed for, and a fantastic replacement for, the weekend flyer and retrofit on a dime market. It has weather, traffic, GPS, moving map w/live TFR's, and wifi (not sure to what).

It is the perfect unit to throw into a trainer or a $100 hamburger plane.
 
One wonders why Bendix/King, Garmin and Trig did not also add a ADS-B in function to their latest transceivers, like Lynx!? This can't be that hard to do, but would allow them to demand a significantly higher price and also provide customers with a nice integrated system.

Right now, one still needs an additional device if he also wants to also benefit from the ADS-B and not just be compliant with the 2020 mandate. :dunno:
 
Last edited:
ahkahn said:
I saw a demo of that transponder at the Sporty's fly-in. Let me tell you... it is one cool unit! It is designed for, and a fantastic replacement for, the weekend flyer and retrofit on a dime market. It has weather, traffic, GPS, moving map w/live TFR's, and wifi (not sure to what).

It is the perfect unit to throw into a trainer or a $100 hamburger plane.
Click to expand...

ya but, for the price......I'd go with a panel upgrade. Why not go with a 530W and a KT74 for that price?....and for another $500 (Skyradar box) get the ADS-B "in" weather and traffic on the iPad.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
ya but, for the price......I'd go with a panel upgrade. Why not go with a 530W and a KT74 for that price?....and for another $500 (Skyradar box) get the ADS-B "in" weather and traffic on the iPad.
Click to expand...


A 530W and KT74 would be nearly double that installed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
winrose46 said:
A new transponder solution just was announced by L3. https://www.l-3avionics.com/ The price dropped to 6.8 K so I think I will get it for my C172.
Click to expand...

STC'ed ADS-B IN & OUT box with internal GPS. You need a compatible display or Ipad and compatible software. Works with legacy transponders and newer transponders. May need a newer blind altitude encoder ($300ish)

All the options:

 
Last edited:
John Collins said:
True, it is not regulatory. But you must then come up with a method that is satisfactory to the FAA and the FAA stated in the AC that it doesn't consider the GS by itself to be reliable.
Click to expand...

Freeflight is FAA approved without a mechanical switch.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top