AD's and Checkrides?

[kenjr]

As a plane owner and student pilot I'm curious what folks bring into a checkride to show all the AD's for the specific airplane?

Do you need to go through each one individually and find out where in the maintenance logs to show that they have all been complied with?

I fly a 1964 Piper PA-28 235. Is there a site somewhere that the FAA posts AD's - I can't seem to find anything like this - for both the engine and airframe I'm assuming...

Thanks!

 

[Henning]

Good question, I'm glad my plane has no ADs.

 

[Tom-D]

As a plane owner and student pilot I'm curious what folks bring into a checkride to show all the AD's for the specific airplane?

Do you need to go through each one individually and find out where in the maintenance logs to show that they have all been complied with?

I fly a 1964 Piper PA-28 235. Is there a site somewhere that the FAA posts AD's - I can't seem to find anything like this - for both the engine and airframe I'm assuming...

Thanks!

FAA.GOV
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/Frameset?OpenPage

 

[RotorAndWing]

Good question, I'm glad my plane has no ADs.

Applicable to Cessna 310D, s/n 39160

69-12-03
87-21-02 R1
73-07-07
72-14-08 R1
69-15-09
69-12-03

To name just a few, and that's not even looking at the engines or appliances.

 

[frfly172]

I always rented for a check ride,the examiner was usually familiar with the flight school airplanes,that eliminated one worry.

 

[rbridges]

Whoever did your annual should provide an AD checklist that shows everything is current. My examiner looked at it for half a second and moved on.

 

[flyingmoose]

Provide the logs if they want to see them. The annual inspection is will show compliance with the AD's for your A/C. YOu will not have to show compliance for everyone to the examiner.

 

[douglas393]

As an aside, and hopefully not a thread hijack, but have your mechanic (or do it yourself) check SB at annual as well. I do it myself as the year goes on and usually speak to my mechanic at the 25 hr oil changes I get, but occasionally one usually an important one gets ignored, like the master switch SB on my G1000 C182T. Now waiting for a new master switch which could have been changed at annual as there is an SB. Cessna does a real good job in informing me, its all my fault on this one.

 

[taters]

As a PIC you are responsible for all AD's.

I always keep a current status sticker on the 'can" of my rental planes..

This includes Last Annual, Last 100 Hour XPNDR check and a line item of all AD;s and their due date. That way there is 0 doubt. As a PIC you are responsible for all AD's.

 

[poadeleted20]

Whoever did your annual should provide an AD checklist that shows everything is current. My examiner looked at it for half a second and moved on.

With an examiner who works by the book, you will be required to show and explain that AD list as part of your test -- see the PP-Airplane PTS Area I, Task B, item 2a for one example. So, make sure the IA who does your annuals is providing you with such a list every year, and that it's in the bag of maintenance records when you go for the practical test.

Also, if you own the plane, that you are on the FAA's e-mail list for AD's for your make/model so if a new one comes out mid-year, you know about it and can take appropriate action. Go to http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/airworthiness_directives/ and see the link for subscribing for AD's.

 

[poadeleted20]

Provide the logs if they want to see them. The annual inspection is will show compliance with the AD's for your A/C. YOu will not have to show compliance for everyone to the examiner.

Incorrect. See the PTS -- you have to show and explain AD compliance, including knowing when recurrent AD's are or will come due, which means either a whole pile of paper or a good AD list. Just pointing to a simple "all AD's c/w this date" statement in your last annual is not sufficient. One example is the Cessna 100-hour seat track inspection. Without a proper AD list, you would not know it exists and that it may have come due again since the last annual.

 

[flyingmoose]

Incorrect. See the PTS -- you have to show and explain AD compliance, including knowing when recurrent AD's are or will come due, which means either a whole pile of paper or a good AD list.

I as an IA am not required to provide you an AD "list!" Verifying compliance is my job and sometimes can be signed off All ad's c/w at this time.

Just pointing to a simple "all AD's c/w this date" statement in your last annual is not sufficient.

Do you have some reference to this? Maybe you do, I would like to see it.

One example is the Cessna 100-hour seat track inspection. Without a proper AD list, you would not know it exists and that it may have come due again since the last annual.

In this example it would be signed in the log as C/W ad 87-20-02R2. Next inspection due 100hr. You don't need a list to be able to see that and when its due next.

Op: Sometimes you have a list of C/W and recurring AD's with you A/C. Or you could have them listed in the back of the Log's. Or if you have ADLOG (which is great) there is a whole binder for AD's. Most likely the questions from the examiner will go something like, "what is an AD?" "Do you have any recurring ad's on your A/C?" And so on. The chances of them asking you to show how a one time AD in 1966 was C/W are very slim. If they do you can pull the log and show them the sign off.

 

[poadeleted20]

I as an IA am not required to provide you an AD "list!" Verifying compliance is my job and sometimes can be signed off All ad's c/w at this time.

Correct. But you're putting your customer behind the 8-ball if you don't.

Do you have some reference to this? Maybe you do, I would like to see it.

See the PTS sections I referenced.

In this example it would be signed in the log as C/W ad 87-20-02R2. Next inspection due 100hr. You don't need a list to be able to see that and when its due next.

If that were so recorded at the last annual and it hasn't been 100 hours since then. But how would you even know that it was required if it wasn't in that entry? What if the requirement were more than 100 hours or annualy? And there may be other AD's which are coming due, not to mention the fact that I routinely see logs with "All AD's c/w as of this date" and nothing more, which doesn't really help much and won't by itself pass muster with the FAA on a practical test.

Op: Sometimes you have a list of C/W and recurring AD's with you A/C. Or you could have them listed in the back of the Log's. Or if you have ADLOG (which is great) there is a whole binder for AD's. Most likely the questions from the examiner will go something like, "what is an AD?" "Do you have any recurring ad's on your A/C?" And so on.

Right, and how can you show the examiner that you know all the recurring AD's without that list? Yes, you could go to the computer and bring up the FAA AD web site with all the recurring AD's for your plane, and then dig back through the logs to find each one documented, but an AD list makes that task way, way easier. As I said, an IA who doesn't print the AD list from one of the commercial AD listing services like that from ATP is just making the customer's life more difficult than it need be. The IA should be pulling up such a list to do the annual anyway, so why not print it, check off the AD's, then give it to the customer when done?

The chances of them asking you to show how a one time AD in 1966 was C/W are very slim. If they do you can pull the log and show them the sign off.

Again, without the annually-prepared AD list, the pilot has 40 years of log entries to go through in order to find it, assuming the pilot even knows the AD exists. Again, without the list, life gets very difficult for the pilot, and that's not the way an IA should be treating a customer.

Keep in mind that the issue here is not FAR legality, but how you approach AD's on a practical test. The AD list makes it easy. Lack of an AD list makes it very hard.

 

[Tom-D]

I as an IA am not required to provide you an AD "list!" Verifying compliance is my job and sometimes can be signed off All ad's c/w at this time.

Do you have some reference to this? Maybe you do, I would like to see it.

Me too

In this example it would be signed in the log as C/W ad 87-20-02R2. Next inspection due 100hr. You don't need a list to be able to see that and when its due next.

That Ad has been superseded to 2011-10-09

Op: Sometimes you have a list of C/W and recurring AD's with you A/C. Or you could have them listed in the back of the Log's. Or if you have ADLOG (which is great) there is a whole binder for AD's. Most likely the questions from the examiner will go something like, "what is an AD?" "Do you have any recurring ad's on your A/C?" And so on. The chances of them asking you to show how a one time AD in 1966 was C/W are very slim. If they do you can pull the log and show them the sign off.

AD Log is a great feature.

I believe our Fav CFI needs a refresher course in the proper method of signing off ADs.

Most of the log books I see have a place for AD compliance in the back of the book, many are blank.

 

[flyingmoose]

Correct. But you're putting your customer behind the 8-ball if you don't.

Unlikely if you sign off that previous ad's are c/w and which ones are due and when.

See the PTS sections I referenced.

I asked for a reference to you saying the sign off "all ad's are c/w" is not legit! Not what the PTS says.

If that were so recorded at the last annual and it hasn't been 100 hours since then. But how would you even know that it was required if it wasn't in that entry?

I guess you wouldn't.

What if the requirement were more than 100 hours or annualy?

Then you can write what ever you need to explain it. Next due 500hr or, next due 08/16 etc.....

And there may be other AD's which are coming due, not to mention the fact that I routinely see logs with "All AD's c/w as of this date" and nothing more, which doesn't really help

I agree this is not best practice by any means, but I am just trying answer the OPs question in practicality. That is they do not on a regular basis go that far in depth with ad's for a checkride, which is what they asked about. With all of that said....knowing ones A/C is not a bad thing and knowing what AD's have been done and what is due--you should!

As I said, an IA who doesn't print the AD list from one of the commercial AD listing services like that from ATP is just making the customer's life more difficult than it need be. The IA should be pulling up such a list to do the annual anyway, so why not print it, check off the AD's, then give it to the customer when done?

If you use that list, fine give it to the customer, but you are not required to use that list. You could just use FAA.gov to check. No list

Again, without the annually-prepared AD list, the pilot has 40 years of log entries to go through in order to find it

Welcome to my world.

 

[poadeleted20]

That may be your world, but your customers pay you to do that for them. In any event, the OP's question was how folks handle this on a practical test, and the answer is that most have a good AD list printed up and filled out by their mechanic. Anything else leads to a longer, more difficult, and possibly unsatisfactory examination on this Area/Task. If you're an aircraft owner, demand an AD list when you take the plane in for annual. If you're an IA, you do your customers a disservice in this regard if you don't provide a completed AD list as part of your annual inspection service.

 

[rbridges]

personally, I would have that list printed and available for the checkride. If anything, it can only grease the skids and show that you're organized. You don't want to be the guy that shows up with stuff missing and set the wrong tone for the rest of the examination.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Just some thoughts on AD and AD compliance.

Using the "All AD's c/w this date" after an annual inspection (or 100 hour inspection) is a great way to screw yourself as the A&P signing them off. If you have been doing all of the maintenance on the said aircraft and have diligently researched all of the AD's from time of manufacture, and have checked every appliance, then go right ahead.

However, if somewhere back years ago another A&P (IA) has signed off the plane repeatedly using the same method, and you assume he actually did research it and you use the ""All AD's c/w this date" signoff, then later the FAA discovers an AD was missed along the way two things are going to happen: The owner will be subject to a LOI and possible enforcement and the IA will lose his privileges for a period of time for falsifying a logbook.

At our IA seminars the practice was highly discouraged for the reasons above and it was recommended that if a logbook entry was made "AD 99-99-99 previously c/w" that the A&P also write with it the logbook page number and date of previous compliance as a cya maneuver.

 

[Pappy]

I'll relay my recent checkride experience using a club airplane. I only took the airframe, prop, and engine logbooks with me. Each book had an entry for the previous (very recent) annual that had the "all A/Ds complied with" language, and the individual logbook had entries made for recurring inspections (e.g. seat rails, transponder, etc).

The examiner simply examined the books, and we talked about them in minor detail. He asked questions about required inspections, when they're due, who can do them, and A/D compliance requirements. Then we went and flew.

He was satisfied with the records that I had brought, and I was not required to explain, in detail, every A/D note that aircraft had and demonstrate compliance.

Hope this helps.

 

[poadeleted20]

I'll relay my recent checkride experience using a club airplane. I only took the airframe, prop, and engine logbooks with me. Each book had an entry for the previous (very recent) annual that had the "all A/Ds complied with" language, and the individual logbook had entries made for recurring inspections (e.g. seat rails, transponder, etc).

The examiner simply examined the books, and we talked about them in minor detail. He asked questions about required inspections, when they're due, who can do them, and A/D compliance requirements. Then we went and flew.

He was satisfied with the records that I had brought, and I was not required to explain, in detail, every A/D note that aircraft had and demonstrate compliance.

Hope this helps.

I sit through at least half a dozen IR practical tests every year, and while some examiners are satisfied with that, most are not. Most want to see a full AD list, and I even know one who insists that if it's been more than 100 hours since the last annual (i.e., since an IA checked for AD's) that the pilot bring a signed statement from an A&P that the AD's have been rechecked. Best practical advice I can give is to ask the DPE about this when making the appointment -- don't just show up without knowing for sure what that particular DPE wants.

 

[DFH65]

Admittedly my check ride was 20+ years ago but I don't remember being asked anything other than to see that I brought all the relevant paper work. We didn't go over it in detail. Of course the examiner knew the guy I was renting from and my instructor very well and tested in this plane all the time.

ETA: Just looked up the examiner online turns out he was killed in a crash, twin engine, in 2004. Fuel starvation listed as probable cause. Had gas in the other tank.

 

[brien23]

Most AD on the airframe and engine and prop are done. Others like the AD on KT-76 transponders and seatbelts and Altimeters, get the best of IA's how do you expect a new pilot to figure that out. Their are very few aircraft that can withstand a real deep search of AD compliance for obsure AD that are out their and have been missed for years.