ADHD … is it a death sentence?

Rain

Filing Flight Plan
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Rain
Hello Group Members,
I apologize for the length of my post, I'm trying to provide details in hopes someone can give some advice. Here's the situation:
My son is finishing his junior year in high school. He is participating in a two-year program in conjunction with a local college in which he attends high school half-day mornings and college half-day afternoons. When he graduates high school next year, he will have completed his first year of the college's professional piloting program. He successfully completed his first year of the program with a B average, and is set to begin working on his private pilot license during the summer. He wants to be a commercial airline pilot. As we were looking into the requirements for his private pilot license,we learned that ADHD is a diagnosis that will prohibit him from getting his medical clearance certificate. Let me explain about his "ADHD". This diagnosis came about when he was 11 years old in 6th grade and was having a rough year in school with an extremely difficult teacher. When we first sought help for him, the counselor who met with him said his results were borderline and made no diagnosis other than him being a typical boy. She worked successfully with him on study skills, organization & time management. He was getting by, although never to the satisfaction of his teacher. We were having a difficult time getting the school to cooperate with some of the small suggestions the counselor made in hopes of making his school life better, such as allowing him to have a second set of books to keep at home in case he forgot to bring a book home for homework/study. The counselor said that with a diagnosis, it basically would force the school to have to comply with these minor requests. Because his results were borderline, and because we were met with so much resistance from the school over the simplest requests, we agreed that the diagnosis was in his best interest. So he got a diagnosis and he got his second set of books to keep at home, but I feel like he also got a career death sentence for being a typical 11 year old boy who had the bad luck of getting a rigid, difficult teacher. He continued to see the counselor for help with study skills through his 7th grade year (2 years total, 6th & 7th) as he transitioned into middle school, and hasn't seen her since. He did take Strattera for about 20 days at the start of 7th grade at the suggestion of his pediatrician who we shared the ADHD diagnosis with. However, he said he didn't like the way it made him feel and we discontinued it before completing the first month. He maintained good grades in middle & high school and this year successfully juggled both his high school & college classes, worked two jobs and participated on the high school swim team. He is 17 now and his life has barely begun, but I feel like that one decision that the adults in his life made six years ago (a decision we thought was being made to help him) will now make his dreams impossible. Since his 6th & 7th grade years, the ADHD diagnosis has played no part in his life. Any advice? I was trying to research online and what I am finding is confusing & scary…. batteries of psycho-neurological tests, thousands of dollars…. and still an uncertain future with no guarantees. Pilot folks, has anyone been in a similar situation and had a successful outcome? Can anyone offer hope or steer me in the right direction to find out if this is a repairable situation … or should my son give up his dream of being a career pilot.
Thank you in advance for taking the time to read my post. I'm crossing my fingers for some positive, hopeful response.
 
Spend a few bucks and talk to Dr. Bruce. He can tell you the best way to move forward.
 
Who is Dr. Bruce? Can you provide a first name & contact info please?
 
Dr. Bruce Chien will provide you with the guidance necessary to make an attempt to disprove the pre-adolescent diagnosis. There are psych evals that will be very, very thorough and a bit expensive. But the end will be the final word on if the young man has it or doesn't.

Do keep in mind that there is no guarantee. So don't build up any false hopes or expectations in case the diagnosis is upheld.

Be 100% open and honest with Bruce, and he will do his best to provide the correct guidance.
 
Just have to pay enough money that you are no long "unsafe". Whole ADD/ADHD thing.....
 
The quick explanation of the "deal" (Doc Bruce will give the you rest):

FAA doesn't like an ADD diagnosis. Most of the time it's been made under similar circumstances as yours. There is a possibility your son doesn't have it. But once the diagnosis is made, it's permanent. FAA considers ADD to be a lifetime illness, it isn't something you outgrow. If you have it, you always have it. The other side of that is that if you DON'T have it, then you never did. And that's the way to get out of it. You need to overturn the original diagnosis, and it has to be done by someone that knows what he/she is doing, and that means a psychiatrist. It's expensive, but that's relative. And you just might find that your son actually does have ADD.

Doc Bruce will have all the details on the tests, who to talk to, what to ask, how to document, ... He's in Peoria, it might be worth a trip.

It can be done - I know.
 
Thank you for your reply. I am just sick to my stomach. I truly feel like I ruined his life. Not an issue in grades k-5, not an issue in grades 7-11, including his college courses. That one year with that one teacher and now he will pay for it for the rest of his life possibly. I am sick. And the resistance from the school to provide any assistance without being forced or required to… that's bs too. All we were asking for was extra books and communication from the teacher on his performance/progress. You can bet that from this day forward I will be the poster child in my community telling parents do not get their young children, especially BOYS, labeled with a diagnosis.
 
Yours is a cautionary tale I always take to heart. As a pilot, there's no way I'm ever gonna let the system get anywhere near my son for a disqualifying diagnosis, whether he gravitates to heavy vehicle equipment operation as an adult or not. Our modern education system is broken, riddled with greedy self-interested (and often times lazy educators) adults attempting to stigmatize human behavior which when I was a school aged child, was considered nominal. Every time I read or hear these kind of anecdotes, my heart breaks.

Clipping young people's potential before they even have a shot to consent. Let this be a lesson to young parents: the road to hell is paved with good intentions. The world is a dog pit, and your children are competition in the eyes of other people. If you ain't cheatin' you ain't trying. I didn't get to the cockpit by accepting half of these yahoos' flippant opinion about fitness to fly. You have to go at it almost with military discipline. Notch, deny, appeal, persist. Good luck to your son. My son may never be interested in driving a truck or an airplane, but it'll never be because some slimy bureaucrat told him a made-up piece of paper from his childhood was marked X versus Y. I'll expat him to the other corner of the world before I teach him to bend over like that.

Good luck to your son. My heart breaks for him.
 
Yours is a cautionary tale I always take to heart. As a pilot, there's no way I'm ever gonna let the system get anywhere near my son for a disqualifying diagnosis, whether he gravitates to heavy vehicle equipment operation as an adult or not. Our modern education system is broken, riddled with greedy self-interested (and often times lazy educators) adults attempting to stigmatize human behavior which when I was a school aged child, was considered nominal. Every time I read or hear these kind of anecdotes, my heart breaks.

Clipping young people's potential before they even have a shot to consent. Let this be a lesson to young parents: the road to hell is paved with good intentions. The world is a dog pit, and your children are competition in the eyes of other people. If you ain't cheatin' you ain't trying. I didn't get to the cockpit by accepting half of these yahoos' flippant opinion about fitness to fly. You have to go at it almost with military discipline. Notch, deny, appeal, persist. Good luck to your son. My son may never be interested in driving a truck or an airplane, but it'll never be because some slimy bureaucrat told him a made-up piece of paper from his childhood was marked X versus Y. I'll expat him to the other corner of the world before I teach him to bend over like that.

Good luck to your son. My heart breaks for him.

I think the problem is much bigger than just educators trying to label kids. It's about our modern Western society's desire to find a miracle cure (drug) for every possible ailment (real or imaginary), driven and orchestrated by the greedy drug manufacturers and medical system.
 
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Thank you for your reply. I am just sick to my stomach. I truly feel like I ruined his life. Not an issue in grades k-5, not an issue in grades 7-11, including his college courses. That one year with that one teacher and now he will pay for it for the rest of his life possibly. I am sick. And the resistance from the school to provide any assistance without being forced or required to… that's bs too. All we were asking for was extra books and communication from the teacher on his performance/progress. You can bet that from this day forward I will be the poster child in my community telling parents do not get their young children, especially BOYS, labeled with a diagnosis.

If it's any comfort, MANY parents are falling in this trap. Nearly one in five high-school-age boys in the United States have been "diagnosed" with ADHD.

http://ireader.olivesoftware.com/Ol....ashx?document=MSB\2013\04\01&article=Ar00103
 
If it can be done, Doc Bruce is the expert who will know, and know how.
If it can't be done, he will not waste your time or money. His only requirement is to be completely honest with him and follow his instructions to the letter.
 
It's not any comfort. I can't believe I did this to him. He hated going to the counselor. We thought we were being good, responsible parents following the thinly veiled cues the teacher was giving us. The buzz words. Did we want him to struggle or be a failure? Of course not! He doesn't have a good attitude about learning poetry. (what 11-year-old boy does?) The irony here is that we as parents, the ones who want to see their children succeed most in life, we were the ones who failed him. I am truly sick to my stomach this evening over this. I will spend the rest of my days here on Earth cautioning parents about allowing their children to be labeled with ADHD diagnosis.

If it's any comfort, MANY parents are falling in this trap. Nearly one in five high-school-age boys in the United States have been "diagnosed" with ADHD.

http://ireader.olivesoftware.com/Ol....ashx?document=MSB\2013\04\01&article=Ar00103
 
Rain, Google "school subsidy ADHD" to read up on how some districts profit off of situations like yours.
 
Look at it this way - you had what you thought were good reasons. And now it's time to find out for sure. You follow the best advice from Doc Chien (or equivalent) and get a full battery of tests from an expert. You get either a clean report and there is no, and never was, any ADD; or, you find out he really does have it. In the first case, the worst part is the stress and guilt you have now ( and $ it will cost ). In the second case...at least you know.

pm me if you want.
 
I think the problem is much bigger than just educators trying to label kids. It's about our modern Western society's desire to find a miracle cure (drug) for every possible ailment (real or imaginary), driven and orchestrated by the greedy drug manufacturers and medical system.
It also has a lot to do with our societies desire to have excuses for everything. No responsibility. Lazy teachers can say behavior problems are an illness and have the kids drugged into compliance. It's a big circular thought process and everyone sitting at the table is looking for an answer that abrogates their accountability.
 
If your child HAS ADHD, then the right thing to do is to get assistance to help him/her best reach achievable life goals - Appropriate medication and assistance will help your child become an engineer, doctor, teacher, lawyer, artist, accountant, or the President of the United States - just not an airline pilot.
If your child does NOT have ADHD, then the right thing to do would be to get the appropriate assistance to clarify and refute the original diagnosis (which also squares you up with the FAA).
 
If your child HAS ADHD, then the right thing to do is to get assistance to help him/her best reach achievable life goals - Appropriate medication and assistance will help your child become an engineer, doctor, teacher, lawyer, artist, accountant, or the President of the United States - just not an airline pilot.
If your child does NOT have ADHD, then the right thing to do would be to get the appropriate assistance to clarify and refute the original diagnosis (which also squares you up with the FAA).

I believe a parent would know best if their kid has ADD, if it's something a hired person has to sell you on, it's probably BS.

And to be pres you need money and connections, a decent sounding name and look, a little sales skills, that's about that.

Artist? The best ones have been the most "disturbed" by modern medical definitions.

Frankly the most "normal" folks tend to be the least successful in my experiences. Greatness is often reserved for the folks who don't fit molds, not the ones who dwell in them.

One of my friends probably was boarder line "ADD" but still could get stuff done, just wasn't good a mundane repetitive mindless tasks, later on in life as a young adult be learned to buckle down and get the boring stuff that is required done too. He has been quite successful and is one of a handful of pilots I trust not only with my personal aircraft, but I'd want sitting right seat if things ever went sideways.
 
One of my friends probably was boarder line "ADD" but still could get stuff done, just wasn't good a mundane repetitive mindless tasks, later on in life as a young adult be learned to buckle down and get the boring stuff that is required done too. He has been quite successful and is one of a handful of pilots I trust not only with my personal aircraft, but I'd want sitting right seat if things ever went sideways.
Yea. I am firmly convinced that undiagnosed ADHD is the reason that checklists are so popular in aviation - a perfect resource for that type of person. Plus, with ADD, one learns to bail one's own ass out of trouble at an early age - good skills for when something goes wrong.
But, of course, what we think is irrelevant - the FAA owns the ball.
 
In my opinion, it's grossly misdiagnosed. I know about this crap because my daughter "had" it. But she is fine now. My daughter has always been very outgoing, loves to talk to everybody and their mother, and is somewhat hyper, and in school she couldn't keep quiet and pay attention in class, and was "disruptive". This has been going on since K, and by 3rd grade, the school strongly suggested that we see a doctor about this. And of course, as parents, you don't want your kid to not get an education due to an issue that they need help with. So we took her to a doctor, and she was diagnosed with it pretty quickly. There are no definitive test, just the doctor's opinion. When she started taking the pills, the teachers reported that she was calmer and less disruptive. What she was was doped up "zombie". But the pills killed her appetite and she started losing weight. He changed to the other med and adjusted her doses but she was still losing weight to a point where even he looked worried, but the guy had no answers. I just said F'it, and I personally made the decision to take her off the drugs. I threw out the meds and we never went back to any doctors. And now, in 5th grade, she has matured and has no trouble sitting still in class and doing her homework because she understands that school is to learn and not play all day. She didn't have ADD, she was just immature and needed some time.

The problem with ADD (or ADHD, as they call it now) is that there's no definitive test for it. It is almost completely subjective, and is diagnosed by doctors who get kickbacks from the drug companies for each pill that they prescribe. It's not like they can scan the brain and see it. To diagnose this, there is a questionnaire that they give to the parents and teacher. The doctor (pediatric behavioral neurologist) looks at the responses on the questionnaire, then compares against a "checklist" (;)) and if the child meets 5 out of 10 items (or whatever the number is), they are labeled as ADD. And then they start prescribing Adderall or Ritalin. The quack that we went to even had coupons for the drugs that the first order would be discounted. And they even tell you that this is a lifelong thing and they will need meds forever basically to be "normal".

OP,
Fight to get this "diagnosis" thrown out. Dr Bruce will know what to do.
 
If you didn't get my email, say so here....I'll try again.

Agree with AggieMike, post#17.
 
My last girlfriend, a nurse, had/has ADHD. She was on Adderall which, in my estimation, was more of a problem than the underlying psychological issue it was supposed to help her cope with. I never got to know the person that was underneath the Adderall saturated person I did know. She wasn't about to lay off the Adderall since she said life was gray and without color or joy when she had tried. She was too intense and frustrating to be around for very long but I can't be around anyone for extended periods so that's no measure . . . but the reason I'm posting is - this friend was unique in that she was the first person I've known who had no sense of direction. She attributed this to her ADHD. She got from one place to another in the city she lives in by memorizing - taking a mental picture - of waypoints along the way. She couldn't visualize the route, she could only memorize individual waypoints.

I didn't believe, in getting to know her initially, that she was devoid of any sense of direction. I've always thought we are "born" with at least a primitive, native sense of direction. As with everything, some are born with more of it than others, but I've always thought all of us have it just as we are born with sight, hearing, etc (unless we're born defective in these or other areas). It makes sense that it would be an innate part of our lizard-brain operating system, developed and passed down genetically through thousands of years of needing to find our way back to a water source or berry patch . . . or knowing where danger lurks geographically (snakepits or bear caves, etc.) thus guiding ourselves around them. But Tracy truly had no sense of direction. I finally believed her when, one day, we went in Costco and I left the store before she did and waited outside where she couldn't spot me immediately. She just walked straight out the doors and continued in a straight line until she was halfway across the parking area, in a completely different direction than the area we had parked in.

I mention this for the interest of the OP. Does your son have a sense of direction? If lack of it is an indicator of ADHD then this might be something to use in making your own diagnosis. If his sense of direction is as completely lacking as it was with my friend, it won't serve him well in his career as a pilot.
 
Gas
Undercarriage
Mixture
Prop
SQUIRREL!

:)

When I was flying solo working on my commercial helicopter rating my instructor was over flying the airport with another student. Later he asked me what kind of hover exercise I was doing. Apparently he hadn't seen anything like it before. There are lots of ground squirrels at the airport where I was flying. Lots of fun to chase those little things.
 
My last girlfriend, a nurse, had/has ADHD. She was on Adderall which, in my estimation, was more of a problem than the underlying psychological issue it was supposed to help her cope with. I never got to know the person that was underneath the Adderall saturated person I did know. She wasn't about to lay off the Adderall since she said life was gray and without color or joy when she had tried. She was too intense and frustrating to be around for very long but I can't be around anyone for extended periods so that's no measure . . . but the reason I'm posting is - this friend was unique in that she was the first person I've known who had no sense of direction. She attributed this to her ADHD. She got from one place to another in the city she lives in by memorizing - taking a mental picture - of waypoints along the way. She couldn't visualize the route, she could only memorize individual waypoints.

I didn't believe, in getting to know her initially, that she was devoid of any sense of direction. I've always thought we are "born" with at least a primitive, native sense of direction. As with everything, some are born with more of it than others, but I've always thought all of us have it just as we are born with sight, hearing, etc (unless we're born defective in these or other areas). It makes sense that it would be an innate part of our lizard-brain operating system, developed and passed down genetically through thousands of years of needing to find our way back to a water source or berry patch . . . or knowing where danger lurks geographically (snakepits or bear caves, etc.) thus guiding ourselves around them. But Tracy truly had no sense of direction. I finally believed her when, one day, we went in Costco and I left the store before she did and waited outside where she couldn't spot me immediately. She just walked straight out the doors and continued in a straight line until she was halfway across the parking area, in a completely different direction than the area we had parked in.

I mention this for the interest of the OP. Does your son have a sense of direction? If lack of it is an indicator of ADHD then this might be something to use in making your own diagnosis. If his sense of direction is as completely lacking as it was with my friend, it won't serve him well in his career as a pilot.

I find this VERY hard to believe, I work with RNs daily and don't know how someone who is as purposeless as the woman you described could have got through RN nursing school, yet alone could hold a job as a RN on a floor.
 
My last girlfriend, a nurse, had/has ADHD. - this friend was unique in that she was the first person I've known who had no sense of direction. She attributed this to her ADHD.

Not necessarily associated. There are people with no sense of spatial orientation who don't have ADD.
 
I find this VERY hard to believe, I work with RNs daily and don't know how someone who is as purposeless as the woman you described could have got through RN nursing school, yet alone could hold a job as a RN on a floor.

You can suck at land navigation with or without ADD/ADHD... Lets not tie the two together. I too work with RN's of every caliber... Some I wonder how they tied their shoes this morning, and some who are absolutely amazing rockstars at what they do. I know more than a few excellent RN's who used adderal through school to help focus on the didactic at various points (some going back for BSN, some for MSN, already working as nurses at the ADN level of education)... and these were solid ICU nurses, on transport teams, ECMO teams, CVICU, Transplant ICU... And some of them sucked at land nav too... On the other hand, I was the second of four trainers for a nurse that was nicknamed "fifty first dates" before she left her training position in cardiac cath lab. She might have been functional in her previous environment, but we had tremendous difficulty progressing through training in the procedure suites, a dynamic environment. Every day we had to retrain on material that should have been mastered early. No idea how she got to work or home ;)

To the original poster, Dr Bruce Chien has on many occasions discussed ADD/and ADHD and how if its properly diagnosed its disqualifying, and SHOULD be so. The person with the disease has developed workarounds to function in normal daily life, in order give the appearance of normal. When under stress, these coping mechanisms break down, and in his words "the executive function" breaks down.. Workarounds stop working under duress, and in an airplane that could get very bad very quick.

Once the diagnosis is made (rightly or wrongly), and medication is given, the onus is on the patient (or parents) to prove it was an incorrect diagnosis and that is done by undergoing the rigorous battery of psychomotor testing to see if one is in fact attention-deficit or not. Considering pretty much any doc any where can prescribe the med, and the educational industry has been implicated in pushing for the diagnosis, you can see how this can set you up for problems later.
 
i am not feeling well reading this post .wtf has this country and government clowns come to, the faa on top of the list. sad day for the USA
 
I want you to get up right now and go to the window, open it, and stick your head out and yell,
"I'm as mad as hell,
and I'm not going to take this anymore!!"
 
I find this VERY hard to believe, I work with RNs daily and don't know how someone who is as purposeless as the woman you described could have got through RN nursing school, yet alone could hold a job as a RN on a floor.

Stick around nursing long enough and you'll see plenty of people you wonder how they got their nursing certificates. Ask my wife what she thought of a few of "her" nurses when she was both an assistant Director of Nursing and later as a full blown DON. I believe her phrase is, "I hate babysitting..."

Plus, recall that there are levels of nurse. LPN vs RN, and specialties beyond that. And of course, Nurse Practitioners.

I'm not trying to downplay it because we have met people who are struggling with it (usually non-native English speakers), but earning an LPN isn't insanely hard. And when you're done, only your boss and your paycheck know you're an LPN vs an RN. Patients know you as "nurse" unless they look closely at your name badge or ask.

Anyway, finding enough motivation and days in "hyper focus" mode to get through an LPN course, wouldn't be that hard for most folks with ADHD. And judging by the focus problems of certain members of Karen's staff and lack of attention to detail, I have no doubt at all that they do.
 
The other poster said RN, which as you said is quite a by diffrent from a LPN, I mean you're talking like a EMT vs a Paramedic.

Ether way, if you're getting yourself through RN school, clinicals and can hold a job on a floor, you ain't mentally disabled.
 
My last girlfriend, a nurse, had/has ADHD.

The other poster said RN, which as you said is quite a by diffrent from a LPN, I mean you're talking like a EMT vs a Paramedic.

He did not specify. He said "nurse", or I wouldn't have made the observation that there's a lot of different levels of skill and effort under that title.
 
He did not specify. He said "nurse", or I wouldn't have made the observation that there's a lot of different levels of skill and effort under that title.

Just re read what he wrote, you're correct, thought I read RN in there somewhere.
 
I believe a parent would know best if their kid has ADD, if it's something a hired person has to sell you on, it's probably BS.

Parents are the worst in recognizing ADD. I've seen parents who fail to see their kids are severly autistic.

100% agree with the second half of your sentence.
 
What are the piloting options for someone with adhd? Sport pilot and part 103?
Also gliders and balloons. However, sport pilot is only an option if the person can get a driver's license. Whether a person with ADHD would be able to do any of those safely, I have no idea.
 
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