Add on ratings

ScottM

ScottM

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iBazinga!
I have a CP-ASEL-IA and will be adding on a rotorcraft rating hopefully sometime later this year.

How will that PP rotorcraft non-instrument be shown on my certificate?
 
Why wouldn't you add on Commercial Rotocraft?
 
The front will still say COMMERCIAL PILOT. On the back, it will say:

AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND
INSTRUMENT AIRPLANE
PRIVATE PILOT PRIVILEGES ROTORCRAFT HELICOPTER
 
Why wouldn't you not go for the commercial rotorcraft?
 
Ron has it exact. Any commercial certificate and you are a commercial pilot, private privileges listed under that as such.
 
frfly172 said:
Why wouldn't you not go for the commercial rotorcraft?
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Because you need a lot more helo time (min 50 hours by regulation) to add the RH at the CP level than you do to add it at the PP level (25 or so, depending on how fast you pick it up). It's easier to get the rest of the helo hours flying as a CP-A/PP-RH than as a CP-A flying helos on a 61.31(d)(2) endorsement.
 
Ron Levy said:
Because you need a lot more helo time (min 50 hours by regulation) to add the RH at the CP level than you do to add it at the PP level (25 or so, depending on how fast you pick it up). It's easier to get the rest of the helo hours flying as a CP-A/PP-RH than as a CP-A flying helos on a 61.31(d)(2) endorsement.
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Ah, that makes sense.

Of course, he is commercial fixed wing.. So everything I read makes it seem that he might take a few hours on the roto-craft.
 
Ron Levy said:
Because you need a lot more helo time (min 50 hours by regulation) to add the RH at the CP level than you do to add it at the PP level (25 or so, depending on how fast you pick it up). It's easier to get the rest of the helo hours flying as a CP-A/PP-RH than as a CP-A flying helos on a 61.31(d)(2) endorsement.
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Actually, the private can be done in 20 hours, or 30 for the commercial. I got my commercial add-on in 33 hours, including the checkride.
 
Anymouse said:
Actually, the private can be done in 20 hours, or 30 for the commercial. I got my commercial add-on in 33 hours, including the checkride.
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I thought it was something like that, which is why I asked my original question. Of course, I was to lazy to look it up...

Point being, I believe most will agree (yeah right) that you may take slightly over the minimum and might as well go for the commercial standards.

But if you don't, that is fine too. It doesn't matter to me...
 
ScottM said:
Is the answer to your inquirery somehow germane to the original question?
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POA is a discussion forum; responses made in your thread are not required to be germane to the original question.
 
Anymouse said:
Actually, the private can be done in 20 hours, or 30 for the commercial. I got my commercial add-on in 33 hours, including the checkride.
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Per 61.63:
(b) Additional aircraft category rating. A person who applies to add a category rating to a pilot certificate:
(1) Must complete the training and have the applicable aeronautical experience.
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With only 33 hours of helo time, how did you meet the requirement in 61.129(c)(1) for "100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in helicopters" for the additional rotorcraft category rating at the CP level?
 
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ja_user said:
I thought it was something like that, which is why I asked my original question. Of course, I was to lazy to look it up...
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I wasn't.

Point being, I believe most will agree (yeah right) that you may take slightly over the minimum and might as well go for the commercial standards.
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Except you can't. See 61.63 and 61.129, quoted above.
 
Ron Levy said:
Per 61.63:
With only 33 hours of helo time, how did you meet the requirement in 61.129(c)(1) for "100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in helicopters" for the additional rotorcraft category rating at the CP level?
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I did it in 40 at a 141 school.:D
 
ClimbnSink said:
I did it in 40 at a 141 school.:D
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DOH!

Yes, under Part 141, it can be done in 30 hours.
(c) Course for an additional rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating.
...
(3) The commercial pilot certificate level requires 30 hours flight training on the areas of operations under appendix D of part 141, paragraph 4.(d)(3).
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C182P said:
POA is a discussion forum; responses made in your thread are not required to be germane to the original question.
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So?

I was curious if it made a difference to the answer I was looking for. There was a distinct lack of context from the asker as to why that information was being requested.
 
Anymouse said:
Actually, the private can be done in 20 hours
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Isn't the real, theoretical answer 13 hours for someone who already has a pilot certificate (or actually, just some non-helicopter flight training)?

Completely unrealistic, but a 3-hr dual night cross country (with 10 takeoffs and landings) in the last 2 months plus 10 hours of solo (with XC and towered landings) would meet 61.109c. The 40 hours of flight and 20 hours of dual doesn't specify "in a helicopter".

I suppose someone could come up with a scenario that makes that possible, I'm just not sure what it is.

I think this has been discussed before, either here or on AOPA, but it's been years.
 
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RussR said:
Isn't the real, theoretical answer 13 hours for someone who already has a pilot certificate?

Completely unrealistic, but a 3-hr dual night cross country (with 10 takeoffs and landings) in the last 2 months plus 10 hours of solo (with XC and towered landings) would meet 61.109c. The 40 hours of flight and 20 hours of dual doesn't specify "in a helicopter".

I suppose someone could come up with a scenario that makes that possible, I'm just not sure what it is.

I think this has been discussed before, either here or on AOPA, but it's been years.
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I think it might be 16, not sure, perhaps you could wrap the 3 hours test prep with the XC.
 
ScottM said:
So?

I was curious if it made a difference to the answer I was looking for. There was a distinct lack of context from the asker as to why that information was being requested.
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I was just curious as to the reasoning. Most people add on commercial ratings to an existing commercial cert.
 
RussR said:
Isn't the real, theoretical answer 13 hours for someone who already has a pilot certificate (or actually, just some non-helicopter flight training)?
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Well, maybe in theory, but you'd have to accomplish it with only 3 hours of helo dual, with all three hours being night XC and including 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport, and the instructor is satisfied at that point to sign you off for the practical test, and you'd need to get 10 hours of solo somewhere in the middle. I'm thinking maybe you do a 2-hour night XC getting a lot of takeoffs and landings after which you're signed for solo, then do 10 hours of solo covering all the things you need there, and finally do a 1-hour practice checkride at night with at least one landing more than 25nm from the original point of departure. But I'm just not seeing that happening for real, and IIRC, most folks take about 20 hours of helo time to be ready for the test to add an RH rating at the PP level.

(c) For a helicopter rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) of this section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in Sec. 61.107(b)(3) of this part, and the training must include at least--
(1) 3 hours of cross-country flight training in a helicopter;
(2) Except as provided in Sec. 61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight training in a helicopter that includes--
(i) One cross-country flight of over 50 nautical miles total distance; and
(ii) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport.
(3) 3 hours of flight training with an authorized instructor in a helicopter in preparation for the practical test, which must have been performed within the preceding 2 calendar months from the month of the test; and
(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a helicopter, consisting of at least--
(i) 3 hours cross-country time;
(ii) One solo cross country flight of 100 nautical miles total distance, with landings at three points, and one segment of the flight being a straight-line distance of more than 25 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations; and (iii) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.
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Ron Levy said:
DOH!

Yes, under Part 141, it can be done in 30 hours.
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:lol: It's not often something slips past Levy!!

RussR said:
Isn't the real, theoretical answer 13 hours for someone who already has a pilot certificate (or actually, just some non-helicopter flight training)?

Completely unrealistic, but a 3-hr dual night cross country (with 10 takeoffs and landings) in the last 2 months plus 10 hours of solo (with XC and towered landings) would meet 61.109c. The 40 hours of flight and 20 hours of dual doesn't specify "in a helicopter".

I suppose someone could come up with a scenario that makes that possible, I'm just not sure what it is.

I think this has been discussed before, either here or on AOPA, but it's been years.
Click to expand...

As Ron mentioned getting done in 13 hours, with just three hours of dual probably ain't going to happen.

As I mentioned earlier, I got my commercial add-on with the 141 course in 33 hours. To be fair, I did have about 20 hours, mostly hovering, before starting the course.

Keeping in mind that the major difference in the PTS between commercial and private is the 180 autorotation (there may be other differences), I doubt seriously if I would have made the private in 20 hours. All that being said, it made sense, financially and training wise, to go for the commercial straight out.

Actually, if it had been an option at the school I went to, I would have gone straight to the ATP. Believe it or not, per Part 141, only 25 hours is required for that. However, this is pretty unrealistic for someone just hopping into the helo for the first time. Keep in mind that 15 (from memory, so it may be different) of those hours is IFR training. This is why the school I went to decided not to offer a Part 141 approved add-on for ATP. They said it would essentially be the same as doing the commercial add-on, then the instrument add-on.
 
Anymouse said:
As I mentioned earlier, I got my commercial add-on with the 141 course in 33 hours. To be fair, I did have about 20 hours, mostly hovering, before starting the course.
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So it really took you 53 hours of helo time, not 33, to get the rating at the CP level.
 
Ron Levy said:
So it really took you 53 hours of helo time, not 33, to get the rating at the CP level.
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The hovering was just that. Hovering. No real instruction going on. Just testing.

I probably would have still done it in the 33 hours (or less if I hadn't taken a 3 month break in the middle of training) regardless.
 
EdFred said:
Unless it wasn't instruction/logged. Then those hours don't exist.
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Unless he got some sort of electronic brain wipe after those 20 hours to remove what learned from his synapses, the experience exists even if the hours aren't in his logbook. Thus, his previous helo experience is highly relevant to someone budgeting for an add-on helo rating, or deciding whether to go for the additional rating at the PP vs CP level, with no prior helo experience.
 
Ron Levy said:
Unless he got some sort of electronic brain wipe after those 20 hours to remove what learned from his synapses, the experience exists even if the hours aren't in his logbook. Thus, his previous helo experience is highly relevant to someone budgeting for an add-on helo rating, or deciding whether to go for the additional rating at the PP vs CP level, with no prior helo experience.
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men-in-black-two-pack-645-75.jpg
 
You hovered for 20 hours, or it took you 20 hours to learn how to hover :)
 
Ron Levy said:
Unless he got some sort of electronic brain wipe after those 20 hours to remove what learned from his synapses, the experience exists even if the hours aren't in his logbook. Thus, his previous helo experience is highly relevant to someone budgeting for an add-on helo rating, or deciding whether to go for the additional rating at the PP vs CP level, with no prior helo experience.
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We have people on this board that took 40 hours to get their private, and we have people on this board that took 300 hours get their private. So, how is one supposed to budget how long it is to take them to get their private? Whether he hovered for 20 hours or not doesn't really have any bearing on how long it takes someone else to get an add on. Some might be ready even if they don't have the hours, and some might not ever be ready.
 
EdFred said:
Whether he hovered for 20 hours or not doesn't really have any bearing on how long it takes someone else to get an add on.
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Agreed, but it has a big bearing on someone thinking about the 33 hours he originally posted as being indicative of the time it takes. Kinda like someone saying "I got my PPL in 40 hours total", without mentioning that s/he had been flying his/her parent's airplane since age 10 and had 200 hours of unlogged experience before his/her first official lesson -- the 40 hours is invalid as a data point for anyone without that unmentioned extensive pre-training flying background.
 
Ron Levy said:
Agreed, but it has a big bearing on someone thinking about the 33 hours he originally posted as being indicative of the time it takes. Kinda like someone saying "I got my PPL in 40 hours total", without mentioning that s/he had been flying his/her parent's airplane since age 10 and had 200 hours of unlogged experience before his/her first official lesson -- the 40 hours is invalid as a data point for anyone without that unmentioned extensive pre-training flying background.
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True. I just usually don't worry about the time it took anyone else, because I pick everything up almost immediately. Except rollerblades. Felt like trying to ride a unicycle on black ice. Which I imagine is what flying a helicopter is like.
 
EdFred said:
True. I just usually don't worry about the time it took anyone else, because I pick everything up almost immediately. Except rollerblades. Felt like trying to ride a unicycle on black ice. Which I imagine is what flying a helicopter is like.
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To me flying a helicopter is like trying to stand still on a beach ball. But at least the controls make a lot more sense than on a fixed wing.

Pull the collective up, you go up. Push it down you go down. Move the cyclic forward, backwards, left, right and you go forward, backwards, left and right. The more you push in a direction, the faster you go in that direction. The peddles actually turn you in the direction that you push too.

The hard part is making it all work at the same time to get the sodding thing to do what you want!!! I have picked up hovering pretty well and am still under ten total hours. So not too bad.

In typical weirdness my first hour of helo time is IFR shooting approaches.
 
ScottM said:
To me flying a helicopter is like trying to stand still on a beach ball. But at least the controls make a lot more sense than on a fixed wing.

Pull the collective up, you go up. Push it down you go down. Move the cyclic forward, backwards, left, right and you go forward, backwards, left and right. The more you push in a direction, the faster you go in that direction. The peddles actually turn you in the direction that you push too.

The hard part is making it all work at the same time to get the sodding thing to do what you want!!! I have picked up hovering pretty well and am still under ten total hours. So not too bad.

In typical weirdness my first hour of helo time is IFR shooting approaches.
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I taught helicopter flying. Like anything else people adapt at different rates.

One concept that takes a while for students to adapt is when you move one control it requires inputs of other controls, you simply cant move one without affecting others.

If you raise the collective, you must add throttle (non governed ships) which require adding pedal which requires moving the cyclic all to compensate, lower the collective and the same is true.

In a hover do a pedal turn, again requires all controls input.

Another area new helicopter pilots have difficulty in is how much control input is required. In a hover the cyclic needs no more input than one finger on top and no more movement than about the diameter of a quarter. I use to demonstrate this to a new student by putting my index finger on top of the cyclic and maintain a steady state hover.

For hovering I preferred the one control at a time method, give the student the cyclic first and let him master that. Then give him just the collective until he had that mastered, then the pedals. Then I would go back and give him the cyclic and the collective, let him master those two together, then introduce the pedals into the mix.
 
RotorAndWing said:
For hovering I preferred the one control at a time method, give the student the cyclic first and let him master that. Then give him just the collective until he had that mastered, then the pedals. Then I would go back and give him the cyclic and the collective, let him master those two together, then introduce the pedals into the mix.
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wouldn't it be great if we taught airplane flying in this manner?
 
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nosehair said:
wouldn't it be great if we taught airplane flying in this manner?
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That is how I was taught to fly airplanes and helicopters. Only difference being time to 'master' each control.
 
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