Accurate ownership cost #s?

[StraightnLevel]

Does anyone know of a place to find accurate cost #s for various planes?

Looking for cost #s for several planes, I see a very wide disparity from various sources, from unreasonably low to unlikely elevated. How do you filter these to get to a reasonable answer/budget?

 

[traumamed]

Does anyone know of a place to fund accurate cost #s for various planes?

Looking for cost #s for several planes, I see a very wide disparity from various sources, from unreasonably low to unlikely elevated. How do you filter these to get to a reasonable answer/budget?

Which planes?

You can look at costs from a "modular" perspective to figure them out for yourself if you find the published numbers sus.

For example:
--Hangar costs are pretty equal across most planes if we are talking standard-wing-length light GA planes. They will vary by region.
--Engine reserve is what that particular engine costs to overhaul, divided by its TBO, times how many engines you have to save for.
--Fuel burn will probably be in the 10-15gph range per engine for most light GA aircraft.
--Insurance will probably be ~2% of the agreed hull value per year, assuming you are experienced and claim-free.
--"Average" annual can probably be found on type-specific forums... but I've always found "average" annual to be a fallacy anyway. They vary wildly.
--How many altimeters do you have to recertify every two years? Add that in.
--Is there a CAPS that has to be repacked every x number of years? Add that in.
--Are you looking at pressurized? If so, is it an old airframe? If yes and yes, add in several thousand per year.

Anyway, fixed costs are easy. Hangar + insurance + financing cost, if you are crazy enough to finance one of these things. The variable costs... vary depending on your use case, which may be why you are seeing widely variable numbers.

EDITED TO ADD: If you're actually talking about the values of airplanes themselves, Vref is sometimes - sometimes - a good starting point. Otherwise, look at market listings on controller, trade-a-plane, barnstormers, and type forums, and you can usually get a rough sense for what's fair for what.

 

[Bell206]

How do you filter these to get to a reasonable answer/budget?

If looking only at the maintenance costs, there is no real average because there are a number of variances with where the aircraft is domiciled being a primary one. A second is the specific aircraft model or variant as there can be a large variance within the same model series. However, there are some private 3rd party services that compile direct operating costs for a good number of aircraft and provide those comparative results at a price. For example, Conklin & De Decker is one of the industry leaders.

 

[StraightnLevel]

Which planes?

You can look at costs from a "modular" perspective to figure them out for yourself if you find the published numbers sus.

For example:
--Hangar costs are pretty equal across most planes if we are talking standard-wing-length light GA planes. They will vary by region.
--Engine reserve is what that particular engine costs to overhaul, divided by its TBO, times how many engines you have to save for.
--Fuel burn will probably be in the 10-15gph range per engine for most light GA aircraft.
--Insurance will probably be ~2% of the agreed hull value per year, assuming you are experienced and claim-free.
--"Average" annual can probably be found on type-specific forums... but I've always found "average" annual to be a fallacy anyway. They vary wildly.
--How many altimeters do you have to recertify every two years? Add that in.
--Is there a CAPS that has to be repacked every x number of years? Add that in.
--Are you looking at pressurized? If so, is it an old airframe? If yes and yes, add in several thousand per year.

Anyway, fixed costs are easy. Hangar + insurance + financing cost, if you are crazy enough to finance one of these things. The variable costs... vary depending on your use case, which may be why you are seeing widely variable numbers.

I'm looking at new planes in the "upgrade" ranges, i.e., Epic, Vision, etc. Another pilot in my area has asked if I'd be interested in co-ownership, and I'd like to have a fairly solid idea of what I'd be signing up for before jumping in or out.....

 

[traumamed]

I'm looking at new planes in the "upgrade" ranges, i.e., Epic, Vision, etc. Another pilot in my area has asked if I'd be interested in co-ownership, and I'd like to have a fairly solid idea of what I'd be signing up for before jumping in or out.....

The "upgrade" ranges, huh. Your "upgrade" range is beyond the range I will ever be able to upgrade to in this lifetime. Lol. Sorry, my post is largely irrelevant to the turbine market.

 

[StraightnLevel]

The "upgrade" ranges, huh. .

Yes, upgrade from single ownership of a Bonanza.

I'm averaging about 10 hours/month with long-ish flights. While it would be a stretch to buy one of these low-end kerosene burners by myself, the math might just work for a group of 4. The capital cost should be almost down to just opportunity cost, since most small planes depreciate slower than inflation. Hangar rental is no different from one plane to another, so I'm left with insurance and operating costs.

 

[traumamed]

Yes, upgrade from single ownership of a Bonanza.

I'm averaging about 10 hours/month with long-ish flights. While it would be a stretch to buy one of these low-end kerosene burners by myself, the math might just work for a group of 4. The capital cost should be almost down to just opportunity cost, since most small planes depreciate slower than inflation. Hangar rental is no different from one plane to another, so I'm left with insurance and operating costs.

Gotcha... yeah, for a four-way ownership model, your cost of ownership (per person) could conceivably land at the upper end of what a high-end piston single would run you. Maybe. Then again, I hear hot sections are expen$ive. Can you put the engine in your potential plane options in a maintenance program with Pratt? That might make the expenses more stable and easier to predict.

 

[StraightnLevel]

Gotcha... yeah, for a four-way ownership model, your cost of ownership (per person) could conceivably land at the upper end of what a high-end piston single would run you. Maybe. Then again, I hear hot sections are expen$ive. Can you put the engine in your potential plane options in a maintenance program with Pratt? That might make the expenses more stable and easier to predict.

Exactly - and that's the sort of cost roll-up I'm hoping to find.

 

[traumamed]

Exactly - and that's the sort of cost roll-up I'm hoping to find.

You've probably done similar already, but I tried plugging into ChatGPT with the assumptions that we were talking about a Vision Jet and that you put the FJ33 into an hours-based maintenance program. It spit out multiple sources that site variable operating costs of $660/hour on the extreme low end, most people being in the $7xx range, and potentially as high as $900 on the high end in a low-use-case or "bad luck" scenario. Of that, around $350-400/hour is fuel. The rest is stuff like engine maintenance plan/engine reserve, time-based maintenance costs/consumables, landing fees, etc. As you know, the fixed costs are just that and easy enough to figure for your own situation. That is the extent of what I can contribute here. Good luck.

 

[bonefishpete]

I generally use cloud heights on a given day for estimating costs.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

Gotcha... yeah, for a four-way ownership model, your cost of ownership (per person) could conceivably land at the upper end of what a high-end piston single would run you. Maybe. Then again, I hear hot sections are expen$ive. Can you put the engine in your potential plane options in a maintenance program with Pratt? That might make the expenses more stable and easier to predict.

I know a TBM annual can be over $100k (this was 10 years ago).

 

[StraightnLevel]

I know a TBM annual can be over $100k (this was 10 years ago).

Right - that's the sort of thing I'm trying to get a handle on. Is this for a 15 year old plane with significant deferral, or is this an average for a well-maintained new plane?

 

[Doc Holliday]

I'm looking at new planes in the "upgrade" ranges, i.e., Epic, Vision, etc. Another pilot in my area has asked if I'd be interested in co-ownership, and I'd like to have a fairly solid idea of what I'd be signing up for before jumping in or out.....

If you are exploring new airplanes you can contact the manufacturer or their service centers and discuss projected maintenance cost such as required inspections, down time and estimated cost of each inspection.

The variable will be if you have a problem while out on a trip which may entail getting a MSU (mobile service unit) to come out.

Also seek out other owners and feel them out on cost.

 

[geezer]

There is a more important set of information that you must have, to see if the proposal is attractive.

Hours per year flown by each prospective partner.

Days at the destination per year for each trip.

This defines how much availability will be reduced by each new member of the partnership. Can your scheduling needs conform to this new rigidity? Your Bonanza may be slow, but it is always there.

I was for many years the main user of the planes (2), and was efficient at planning ahead. I had the prime plane for many of the preferred times of use. There was much unhappiness, but even when the rules were adjusted to limit my "Abusive scheduling practices", Their unwillingness to schedule until the last minute resulting in no change in my success in the competition to fly at the most desirable times.

Shared ownership can be either great, or terrible, depending on how the partners expect to use the plane, especially if there is only one plane. 40 years of shared ownership, and happy with every year.

 

[geneseib]

Does anyone know of a place to fund accurate cost #s for various planes?

Get a dart board. Toss three darts to determine the number of AMUs.

 

[pfarber]

If looking only at the maintenance costs, there is no real average because there are a number of variances with where the aircraft is domiciled being a primary one.

I think the amount of preventative maintenance an owner undertakes is a larger consideration.

There is a lot that an owner can do that they don't. Like handling simple corrosion issues, paint, lube, oil etc. Catch those things early and they are non-issues.

 

[StraightnLevel]

I think the amount of preventative maintenance an owner undertakes is a larger consideration.

There is a lot that an owner can do that they don't. Like handling simple corrosion issues, paint, lube, oil etc. Catch those things early and they are non-issues.

True, but I'm not sure how much this applies to a new kerosene burner under shared ownership. Yes, I do some PM work on my Bonanza, but:

1) Most of the items that an owner can do aren't applicable to a new plane.
2) Group ownership seems like an unlikely place for owner/pilot maintenance. Nobody wants to the be the last person who worked on the plane right before a co-owner has a mechanical failure in flight.
3) Do turbines require oil changes?

 

[Doc Holliday]

True, but I'm not sure how much this applies to a new kerosene burner under shared ownership. Yes, I do some PM work on my Bonanza, but:

1) Most of the items that an owner can do aren't applicable to a new plane.
2) Group ownership seems like an unlikely place for owner/pilot maintenance. Nobody wants to the be the last person who worked on the plane right before a co-owner has a mechanical failure in flight.
3) Do turbines require oil changes?

Yes, there will be an oil change interval but it’s longer than on a piston engine. And I would suggest letting a SC do it.

 

[Doc Holliday]

I think the amount of preventative maintenance an owner undertakes is a larger consideration.

There is a lot that an owner can do that they don't. Like handling simple corrosion issues, paint, lube, oil etc. Catch those things early and they are non-issues.

A new turbine aircraft is a different ball game.

To the OP, have the aircraft on CAMP to track MX events and coordinate with a SC for scheduled maintenance and inspections.

Consider having the engine on a maintenance program as well, and explore the cost of a parts program.

 

[Jim K]

The vision jet should be easy to figure. They're (almost?) all on the maintenence plan and have a fixed cost per year.

The rest of the options, best bet is probably to talk to current owners and their service centers.

 

[Bell206]

I think the amount of preventative maintenance an owner undertakes is a larger consideration.

Except at the turbine level most owners do not perform the prevent mx for a number of reasons. So there usually is no consideration along that route.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

Right - that's the sort of thing I'm trying to get a handle on. Is this for a 15 year old plane with significant deferral, or is this an average for a well-maintained new plane?

It was a well maintained plane, but maybe 10+ years old because the major expense was a required engine service, don’t know the details.

 

[Bob Noel]

Does anyone know of a place to fund accurate cost #s for various planes?

interesting typo... at least I'm assuming it's a typo

 

[pfarber]

A new turbine aircraft is a different ball game.

To the OP, have the aircraft on CAMP to track MX events and coordinate with a SC for scheduled maintenance and inspections.

Consider having the engine on a maintenance program as well, and explore the cost of a parts program.

Agreed.

If you are at the turbine level of ownership you are most likely not personally turning wrenches and running a tool calibration program.

The 2009 Coleal decision allows for pilots to do quite a lot under preventative maintenance. As long as its logged properly there shouldn't be an issue with the FAA. The MX provider may have further restrictions though.

Changing the oil in a turbine/APU/starter/ADG is not a complicated task, and the FAA still calls it preventative... but the DOM or the GMM my not allow it, for reasons. Opening the nacelles on a jet is way easier than messing with GA cowels and playing fastener roulette.

 

[Ed Haywood]

Nobody knows.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Since we are discussing turbines and parts/maintenance, and the value of a parts program:

I was flying a late model CE680 and had the left engine EEC (engine computer) decide to quit.

That part number of the EEC was superseded and Textron didn’t have any in stock, but they had the new part number.

But here’s the catch. The p/n has to match both engines, so this meant replacing both EEC’s and both harnesses had to be replaced as well. Also, they had to hook a computer to the plane and took the better part of a day to map the EEC’s.

The two EEC’s and the two harnesses were $200k. Because the aircraft was on a parts plan, that was covered.

Turbines are expensive, and as you can see above how the cost escalate quickly. So while inspections and routine maintenance can be forecast, have some part fail can get pricey quick.

Do the due diligence on an engine program and a parts program.

 

[Cloudhound]

Since we are discussing turbines and parts/maintenance, and the value of a parts program:

I was flying a late model CE680 and had the left engine EEC (engine computer) decide to quit.

That part number of the EEC was superseded and Textron didn’t have any in stock, but they had the new part number.

But here’s the catch. The p/n has to match both engines, so this meant replacing both EEC’s and both harnesses had to be replaced as well. Also, they had to hook a computer to the plane and took the better part of a day to map the EEC’s.

The two EEC’s and the two harnesses were $200k. Because the aircraft was on a parts plan, that was covered.

Turbines are expensive, and as you can see above how the cost escalate quickly. So while inspections and routine maintenance can be forecast, have some part fail can get pricey quick.

Do the due diligence on an engine program and a parts program.

What is the cost of the parts program for this example CE680?

 

[Doc Holliday]

What is the cost of the parts program for this example CE680?

Those vary on several factors. I don’t own the airplane and I didn’t ask the owner. But, he’s been very pleased with it.

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[schmookeeg]

1d10 per 100hp x $1000 per year? I doubt anything can ever be more accurate than that honestly