Accident in McKinney, TX

Frogs97

Frogs97

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Frogs97
They don't seem to have any really good pictures. But, it looks like this is a tailwheel, maybe? Is this what happens if you stand on the brakes?
 

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Stopped short doesn't even begin to describe it.
 
Looks like a 172 or 182... Maybe landing downwind and caught a gust with up elevator?
 
DesertNomad said:
Looks like a 172 or 182... Maybe landing downwind and caught a gust with up elevator?
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Tail feathers would indicate a straight tail 180 or 182 (i.e. ends of elevator cut at 45 deg)..and since it appears to be a tailwheel...
 
If you look closely you can see front wheels. It's a 180 I think.
 
I never even considered the possibility that it could be a nosewheel airplane. Nosing over is something that happens with taildraggers. I have seen several Youtubes of 140's nosed over. Usually a 1946 or 47 because the mains are mounted further rearward. I have felt the tail come up before when getting on the brakes too aggressively and I have a 1948 with the more forward mounted main gear.

On the local news this morning, they said the cause of the accident was crosswind. Yeah right!:rolleyes: I checked the McKinney weather for yesterday and the wind was never anything, except S, SW or SE all day long. McKinney has only a North/South runway, 18/36 IIRC. I don't know what time it happened. They do show 15 G20 a few times during the day though.

That said, I don't think anything could nose it over without misapplication of the brakes.

I apologize for the Monday morning quarterbacking, but panic use of brakes in a tailwheel airplane is not good.

My $0.02.
 
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It is a very advanced tailwheel technique: a one point landing. :D

John
 
Frogs97 said:
They don't seem to have any really good pictures. But, it looks like this is a tailwheel, maybe? Is this what happens if you stand on the brakes?
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Looks like a C-180, and yep, that's what happens when you stand on the brakes too hard.
 
MBDiagMan said:
I never even considered the possibility that it could be a nosewheel airplane. Nosing over is something that happens with taildraggers.
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Or a collapsed nose gear. Most common on training aircraft where the nose gear gets a fair amount of abuse. Usually when the nose gear folds back, the angle of the plane is not so extreme, so in this case I concur that likely a TW plane.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyb0NPkcRTA
 
You always keep the stick back when rolling out..

Dive away from a tail wind and climb into a head wind when taxiing.

I fly off of grass. But when I roll out on pavement it's just the rudder I'm on.

I do use the breaks for my run up though :yes:

But in general I don't know crap about flying so when I'm up get out of the way:D
 
Donkey! said:
You always keep the stick back when rolling out..

Dive away from a tail wind and climb into a head wind when taxiing.

I fly off of grass. But when I roll out on pavement it's just the rudder I'm on.

I do use the breaks for my run up though :yes:

But in general I don't know crap about flying so when I'm up get out of the way:D
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I would post the number of times my instructor told me that, but I don't think I can count that high.:D

I do use the brakes on the runway sometimes in order to turn off of the runway to get out of someones way, but I have enough experience now to feel quite comfortable about knowing how much braking I can get by with and am doing that at a pretty slow speed. The last time I used enough brake to feel the tail come up was on my checkride.:yikes:

I've often wondered what it was like in the early days when planes had no brakes. At least they didn't have to worry about nosing them over, that is unless they hit a ditch or something.
 
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docmirror said:
Or a collapsed nose gear. Most common on training aircraft where the nose gear gets a fair amount of abuse. Usually when the nose gear folds back, the angle of the plane is not so extreme, so in this case I concur that likely a TW plane.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyb0NPkcRTA
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Not uncommon on a 182. On Catalina it was a sport to watch landings and wait for 182s to collapse their nose gear hitting the 'speed bump' 1/3 of the way up the runway while standing hard on the brakes, (few times a year, typically on a busy holiday weekend) but I never saw one go up on the nose. I would think it impossible due to the fulcrum position of the main gear and the angles involved. You need a vaulting lever angle/CG to get on the nose, and tricycle doesn't provide one, CG is forward of fulcrum, to vault or ground loop you need CG aft of fulcrum.
 
Why I love turf so much.

It's almost impossible to stand one up on grass.
 
Zeldman said:
ahhhhh.... ok. I was thinking it had something to do with the moon phase.... :idea:
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When the moon is in the Seventh House
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the plane upon its nose...:lol:
 
Henning said:
Not uncommon on a 182. On Catalina it was a sport to watch landings and wait for 182s to collapse their nose gear hitting the 'speed bump' 1/3 of the way up the runway while standing hard on the brakes, (few times a year, typically on a busy holiday weekend) but I never saw one go up on the nose. I would think it impossible due to the fulcrum position of the main gear and the angles involved. You need a vaulting lever angle/CG to get on the nose, and tricycle doesn't provide one, CG is forward of fulcrum, to vault or ground loop you need CG aft of fulcrum.
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Bonanza's were the worst. Coming down high and hot over the cliff and going around or smoking the brakes. Saw one guy take three attempts to finally land. Sunday brunch was always fun. Did you ever play the reaction time game they had there. Don
 
yakdriver said:
Bonanza's were the worst. Coming down high and hot over the cliff and going around or smoking the brakes. Saw one guy take three attempts to finally land. Sunday brunch was always fun. Did you ever play the reaction time game they had there. Don
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At Avalon? Never heard of it... The funny part is, those guys all collapsed their gear due to fear of an illusion. First they get scared of the precipice at the threshold so they land long, and then they stand on the brakes since you can't see the second half of the runway from the first and it looks like you'll run off, and they hit the speed bump past the first turn off fast with the nose strut fully collapsed and that heavy engine inertia right over it. I worked two jobs, one running shore boat in Avalon and one as an aircraft mechanic at LGB and commuted with my Travelair. My boss had a spare 182 prop that I kept in my apartment in Avalon and got most of the contracts to get them square on their feet and ferry them back to the mainland.
Funniest part is that if you just land near the threshold, you can make the first turn off easily and never hit the speed bump, or if you land long, you can just hold the yoke back and roll right over it.
 
I went over there once or twice a month from 78-81 then I moved to Idaho. Most of the time I was flying a Great Lakes or a Decathalon. I always just landed normally and never noticed much of a downdraft effect even on breezy days. That runway did have the illusion of being short with that hump in the middle. I used all the sailboats as a slalom course on the way back to SNA. I was younger and dummer then flying so low on the water that far from shore. Don
 
yakdriver said:
I went over there once or twice a month from 78-81 then I moved to Idaho. Most of the time I was flying a Great Lakes or a Decathalon. I always just landed normally and never noticed much of a downdraft effect even on breezy days. That runway did have the illusion of being short with that hump in the middle. I used all the sailboats as a slalom course on the way back to SNA. I was younger and dummer then flying so low on the water that far from shore. Don
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That's why I had a twin.:D I never really had a down draft issue either, and I was commuting daily for a while. The fun days were the ones where the cloud base was just over the runway and you had to climb to land.
 
Watched a Cherokee at AVX skid sideways, pop a tire and come to rest right at the crest of the rise in the runway, with 1000 feet of runway remaining. That's about as much entertainment as I had there.
 
Pilawt said:
Watched a Cherokee at AVX skid sideways, pop a tire and come to rest right at the crest of the rise in the runway, with 1000 feet of runway remaining. That's about as much entertainment as I had there.
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Better than the Lear managed. He had plenty of runway left, freaked out, hit the power to go around, engines didn't spool in time and off the end and down the hill he went.:( He's not the only one either, a Mooney did it a few years back but IIRC they survived.
 
Henning said:
Better than the Lear managed. He had plenty of runway left, freaked out, hit the power to go around, engines didn't spool in time and off the end and down the hill he went.:( He's not the only one either, a Mooney did it a few years back but IIRC they survived.
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I remember that Lear accident in 1984. A few days later, Channel 5 news anchorman Hal Fishman flew right seat out there in Clay Lacy's Lear 24 with a camera crew in back, to show that the approach could be safely done.
 
yakdriver said:
I went over there once or twice a month from 78-81 then I moved to Idaho. Most of the time I was flying a Great Lakes or a Decathalon. I always just landed normally and never noticed much of a downdraft effect even on breezy days. That runway did have the illusion of being short with that hump in the middle. I used all the sailboats as a slalom course on the way back to SNA. I was younger and dummer then flying so low on the water that far from shore. Don
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gosh, sounds just like me. Funny we didn't have a head-on going or coming. I was in Sandy Eggo and used to fly a starburst red/white Citabria out there with my GF. We'd do some skimming on the way home sometimes too. I liked to head back to the nuke plant in the afternoon and buzz down Blacks Beach, ifyaknowwhatimean? My GF in back was cool about it.
 
docmirror said:
gosh, sounds just like me. Funny we didn't have a head-on going or coming. I was in Sandy Eggo and used to fly a starburst red/white Citabria out there with my GF. We'd do some skimming on the way home sometimes too. I liked to head back to the nuke plant in the afternoon and buzz down Blacks Beach, ifyaknowwhatimean? My GF in back was cool about it.
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Blacks Beach? Last time I was there I needed eye bleach.:rofl:
 
Henning said:
Not uncommon on a 182. On Catalina it was a sport to watch landings and wait for 182s to collapse their nose gear hitting the 'speed bump' 1/3 of the way up the runway while standing hard on the brakes, (few times a year, typically on a busy holiday weekend) but I never saw one go up on the nose. I would think it impossible due to the fulcrum position of the main gear and the angles involved. You need a vaulting lever angle/CG to get on the nose, and tricycle doesn't provide one, CG is forward of fulcrum, to vault or ground loop you need CG aft of fulcrum.
Click to expand...

Yeah, AVX has that hump in the runway and people think they are running out of runway when they still have a bunch left. Then it's hard on the brakes. I used to live in Torrance and loved to fly over to AVX from TOA for lunch.

Buffalo Burgers!
 
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