ABC Nightline video on airplane accidents

Interesting, One thing that I've notice in upset training is that it appears that a majority of the time its done in planes like Citabrias or Decathalons with sticks and non tandem seating. I'd like to get some in a tandem plane with yokes as they are more like the planes I fly. I think there is a guy with a 150 aerobat near me, I'll have to look him up.
 
What a POS article. Here's some "facts". Motorcycle deaths topped above 5,000 in 2008. Account that versus what, 500 GA deaths according to the article? More people die slipping in their tubs than spin/stalling/CFIT their damn private magic carpets each year.

This is one instance in which absolute values matter more than per-capita or normalized percentages. I don't care how niche the activity is, fact remains few people die. The article's tone makes the attempt at suggesting just as many people die doing niche activities than doing commoner drudgery such as driving a motor vehicle or motorcycle. Which is not true.

The ultimate point about this trend is essentially the demonstration that, as a society, we seek to rationalize the stupidity of the majority while demonizing the stupidity of the minority. It has nothing to do with safety. As a society we are much more appeased by dying in the hands of a drunk driver than we are as a small aircraft operator or passengers simply because as a collective we engage more in the former activity than the latter. What a weaksauce aggregate of people we have become. We seek to limit and ostracize the pursuits of the minority while protecting the behavior of the majority, latter which is in its TOTALITY, is much more costly and dangerous. The irony...
 
This fella has an agenda.
I've done upset training and it can be valuable. What ever happened to quiet competence?

Best,

Dave
 
AdamZ said:
Interesting, One thing that I've notice in upset training is that it appears that a majority of the time its done in planes like Citabrias or Decathalons with sticks and non tandem seating. I'd like to get some in a tandem plane with yokes as they are more like the planes I fly. I think there is a guy with a 150 aerobat near me, I'll have to look him up.
Click to expand...

I did my spin training in a 172. I've been urged to do it in a Great Lakes, but owning a 182 the 172 made much more sense.
 
AdamZ said:
Interesting, One thing that I've notice in upset training is that it appears that a majority of the time its done in planes like Citabrias or Decathalons with sticks and non tandem seating. I'd like to get some in a tandem plane with yokes as they are more like the planes I fly. I think there is a guy with a 150 aerobat near me, I'll have to look him up.
Click to expand...

You can spin a regular 152 if it has the rudder stop AD done.
 
Is Rich Stowell a "respected" person in aviation or not? I have heard the name but I cannot remember where or why.

David
 
flhrci said:
Is Rich Stowell a "respected" person in aviation or not? I have heard the name but I cannot remember where or why.

David
Click to expand...


He has been doing upset training for a long time. I think he has written a book or two on the subject
 
The real issue is that to spin means the pilot has already screwed up. Frequently at low altitude where even with 10,000 hours of instruction from Mr. Stowall, they're not likely to recover. The key is to keep people from inadvertently stalling airplanes. Stop that, and you stop spins.

Hell, our buddies at Colgan and Air France and a few others with much more training than the average GA still managed to kill people with simple stalls let alone spins because they didn't realize the answer to going down isn't always pull up.
 
hindsight2020 said:
This is one instance in which absolute values matter more than per-capita or normalized percentages.
Click to expand...

I'm sure that the absolute number of people who die playing Russian Roulette is very low. Would you play?
 
flyingron said:
The real issue is that to spin means the pilot has already screwed up. Frequently at low altitude where even with 10,000 hours of instruction from Mr. Stowall, they're not likely to recover. The key is to keep people from inadvertently stalling airplanes. Stop that, and you stop spins.

Hell, our buddies at Colgan and Air France and a few others with much more training than the average GA still managed to kill people with simple stalls let alone spins because they didn't realize the answer to going down isn't always pull up.
Click to expand...

There are some CFIs who teach their primary students to control their descent rate on final approach with pitch, and their airspeed with power. I have often wondered if that has something to do with it.
 
Palmpilot said:
There are some CFIs who teach their primary students to control their descent rate on final approach with pitch, and their airspeed with power. I have often wondered if that has something to do with it.
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Well if you set the KAP-150 to track the ILS and give the plane more throttle, you will go down the chute faster.
 
Do wha? Airline fatalities to GA accidents into spin training? huh? Did someone forget their meds? Looks like a copy/pasted high school term paper.
 
flyingron said:
The key is to keep people from inadvertently stalling airplanes.
Click to expand...

There are also many, many cases where a low altitude stall due to distraction could have been safely recovered but ends up a smoking hole because the pilot botched the recovery and made things worse.

You can definitely argue they should not have been in that situation anyway, and I agree. But a lot of stall/spin training will not only give someone the tools they need to recover, but it will also give them a better ability to detect the onset of a stall and avoid it altogether.
 
Yes, Rich Stowell is a respected name in aviation education. http://www.richstowell.com/
I think that the ABC News presentation, which only used a small portion of the flight that he did with Jim, was pretty poor and sensationalistic. The version linked above that aired later on Nightline was a little more comprehensive.
 
Yup. Articles like this remind me of the simpsons episode where the school teacher had an independant thought alarm button. If you accept their contention that there is a problem you have lost.

hindsight2020 said:
What a POS article. Here's some "facts". Motorcycle deaths topped above 5,000 in 2008. Account that versus what, 500 GA deaths according to the article? More people die slipping in their tubs than spin/stalling/CFIT their damn private magic carpets each year.

This is one instance in which absolute values matter more than per-capita or normalized percentages. I don't care how niche the activity is, fact remains few people die. The article's tone makes the attempt at suggesting just as many people die doing niche activities than doing commoner drudgery such as driving a motor vehicle or motorcycle. Which is not true.

The ultimate point about this trend is essentially the demonstration that, as a society, we seek to rationalize the stupidity of the majority while demonizing the stupidity of the minority. It has nothing to do with safety. As a society we are much more appeased by dying in the hands of a drunk driver than we are as a small aircraft operator or passengers simply because as a collective we engage more in the former activity than the latter. What a weaksauce aggregate of people we have become. We seek to limit and ostracize the pursuits of the minority while protecting the behavior of the majority, latter which is in its TOTALITY, is much more costly and dangerous. The irony...
Click to expand...
 
These practice maneuvers are performed over my ranch frequently (the acrobatic box is about 8mi east of szp). In my opinion this type of training should be highly recommended, if not mandatory.
 
I've never been a fan of how the media sensationalizes all air-travel related mishaps, and the segment shown illustrates why: Outrageous statements from some bureaucrat followed by a half-baked explanation of stall/spin accidents and then dramatic footage of a newsguy with a parachute on, holding the cabane struts while performing the most basic aerobatics. This story is just the kind of crap meant to whip the public into some sort of legislative frenzy. It explained nothing. It sensationalized everything. And, more to the point, it completely glosses over what may be the real issue: It's hard to stay current when avgas is $7/gal. Lots of pilots not flying much anymore - and those are the side effects.
 
Rich Stowell is one of the best known upset/UA instructors in the US.

- Russ
 
I don't know if the training actually makes a difference or not for the accident rate. But, I can say that I feel very fortunate to have received about 10+ hours of spin and aerobatic training prior to solo, near Santa Paula.

Even though that was over 40 years ago and I have never done any since, I feel that some of the motions and recovery has become sort of instinctive and I would not panic.
 
"Entered a death spiral." Ugh.

I don't think the debate should be about whether we should be emphasizing stall prevention or spin recovery training. I emphatically think we should strongly emphasize both. It shouldn't be an argument of which one is more important.

My instructor, before I soloed during my private training a few years back, covered stall prevention and recovery quite well. Then we did one flight of spin recognition and recovery training. It saved my butt later when I got a strong gust of wind in slow flight and entered a spin. That was in a C150.

I'm a believer in mastering all the available tools. And in providing people with all the tools they might need to be responsible and safe.
 
j1b3h0 said:
I've never been a fan of how the media sensationalizes all air-travel related mishaps, and the segment shown illustrates why: Outrageous statements from some bureaucrat followed by a half-baked explanation of stall/spin accidents and then dramatic footage of a newsguy with a parachute on, holding the cabane struts while performing the most basic aerobatics. This story is just the kind of crap meant to whip the public into some sort of legislative frenzy. It explained nothing. It sensationalized everything.
Click to expand...

So in other words, it was like every news story ever.
 
flyingron said:
The real issue is that to spin means the pilot has already screwed up. Frequently at low altitude where even with 10,000 hours of instruction from Mr. Stowall, they're not likely to recover. The key is to keep people from inadvertently stalling airplanes. Stop that, and you stop spins.
Click to expand...

Exactly right.

But the time the plane begins to spin you have already stalled. Stop the stalls and you won't spin.

The best lesson this guy is teaching is learn not to panic. That is done with training. Being able to get out of a stall and spin requires discipline. Most pilots lack discipline in emergency situations, they panic.
 
skidoo said:
I don't know if the training actually makes a difference or not for the accident rate. But, I can say that I feel very fortunate to have received about 10+ hours of spin and aerobatic training prior to solo, near Santa Paula.

Even though that was over 40 years ago and I have never done any since, I feel that some of the motions and recovery has become sort of instinctive and I would not panic.
Click to expand...

:yes:
 
Stories run for a reason, nothing in the msm is random. Adds to the post in the other thread about a ga safety witch hunt. Don't fall for it, it ain't about safety it is about reducing freedom.
 
j1b3h0 said:
I've never been a fan of how the media sensationalizes all air-travel related mishaps, and the segment shown illustrates why: Outrageous statements from some bureaucrat followed by a half-baked explanation of stall/spin accidents and then dramatic footage of a newsguy with a parachute on, holding the cabane struts while performing the most basic aerobatics. This story is just the kind of crap meant to whip the public into some sort of legislative frenzy. It explained nothing. It sensationalized everything. And, more to the point, it completely glosses over what may be the real issue: It's hard to stay current when avgas is $7/gal. Lots of pilots not flying much anymore - and those are the side effects.
Click to expand...

The only way the media could "not" sensationalize is to do 100,000 hours of programming about non-crashes for every hour about crashes.

Media = Sensationalism
 
Our country and society as a whole is incredibly safe when compared to other cultures/eras. They have to find something to complain about.
 
One thing that struck me:

More private pilots are in the air now than ever, and the leading cause of death is pilot loss of control.
Click to expand...

It sounds like they just wrote stuff without bothering to do any research.
 
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