A380 upsets Challenger at FL350

MD11Pilot said:
Guys, some of you need to go and study wake vortices. They sink and they spread downwind. ATC is the same the world over. Only so many altitudes are available and just because your aircraft can go to 410 doesn't mean your going to get it. Worldwide it is now standard to use SLOP as procedure. Strategic Lateral Offset Program. Why? Because inertial navigation, GPS nav is so accurate that everyone flies very close lines. Vortices sink so someone that is 1000 feet lower is (especially in light winds) probably going to get kicked...hard. I have had my MD11 rocked over thirty degrees by a 380 and a 747. ATC now assigns a certain offset of up to three miles. Over the North Atlantic the Captain offsets 1 mile and the F/O offsets 2 miles (just for standardization). This means that on coming traffic is usually about 2 to 4 miles offset from each other.
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???? What does what seat the guy flyin the plane have to do with it?
 
MD11Pilot said:
Guys, some of you need to go and study wake vortices. They sink and they spread downwind. ATC is the same the world over. Only so many altitudes are available and just because your aircraft can go to 410 doesn't mean your going to get it. Worldwide it is now standard to use SLOP as procedure. Strategic Lateral Offset Program. Why? Because inertial navigation, GPS nav is so accurate that everyone flies very close lines. Vortices sink so someone that is 1000 feet lower is (especially in light winds) probably going to get kicked...hard. I have had my MD11 rocked over thirty degrees by a 380 and a 747. ATC now assigns a certain offset of up to three miles. Over the North Atlantic the Captain offsets 1 mile and the F/O offsets 2 miles (just for standardization). This means that on coming traffic is usually about 2 to 4 miles offset from each other.
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SLOP doesn't work that way. The offset is 0, 1, or 2 miles. Standard is 1 mile. And ATC does not have anything to do with it. You offset 1 mile. If someone is above you creating a wake turbulence issue, you can offset to 2 miles. Never heard of an offset based on who is flying the airplane.

Oh, and SLOP is only used in oceanic airspace as far as I recall. Maybe also wherever Class 2 nav is required. It is not used where radar is used.
 
Greg and luvflyin

The amount of SLOP is MY company directions for use for which seat. It is JUST my companies direction. Like I said...(just for standardization) unless it is part of a clearance.

ONLY on the North Atlantic? Uh, well I guess when the Chinese, Viet Namese, Thai, Burmese, Indian controllers tell us to offset to the right up to three miles then I will quote that it is only a North Atlantic thing. It is an ATC thing, or at least it was just a few weeks ago and will be when I transit those areas in a couple of weeks. When ATC gives you a clearance to offset a certain amount, then it is NOW a clearance and a violation of that clearance to not offset that amount. China routinely uses up to three miles offset.

According to the latest NATOPS manual...SLOP is NOT required in the North Atlantic but highly recommended and expected and it is either 1 or 2 miles. Just went through recurrent and this was discussed by MY company

http://flightservicebureau.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/NATDoc007-2017Edition-OPSGROUP.pdf

Section 8.5 discusses the SLOP on the North Atlantic. I do not have a link to the Chinese or other SE Asian OPS but they do use SLOP as routine clearances.
 
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Well, for what its worth, I never said it was exclusive to the North Atlantic.

And I will submit that when those various ATC facilities use offsets, it isn't really part of the SLOP program. It is more their version of tragic separation.
 
Greg
Apologies if it came across wrong. Now I really like that statement "their version of tragic separation". You don't realize how correct that is. I truly believe that the Chinese heard about this SLOP thing and said "lets do that".
Reminds me of the story of the Russian Space program when they were sending up their version of the Shuttle. When asked why they rotated the craft after lift off "the Americans do it so we do too".....probably not a true story but maybe more truth than fiction.

In the Burma, Myanmar or whatever they call themselves this week, on the charts there is a notam for all aircraft to broadcast on a certain frequency, their position, altitude and route in the blind to other aircraft, even if in contact with Rangoon Control. Why? Because, at times their remote transmitters are either destroyed or shutdown by rebels and there is no contact with ATC. At times, we self ATC and others it is just fine.

It truly is a whole other world over there. I have even used my SAT phone system to call a controller in Indian to let him know that I was in his airspace (one airway you go from Bangladesh to India to Bangladesh to Indian airspace in less than 100 miles (chart notams say contact must be made or we shoot you down). The controller answered the phone and said "Call me when you get to point X, good bye". The Indian controllers believe that if you say again, that you mean to say it louder and faster.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
I'd think both planes and the wake are in the same block of air which may or may not be moving with respect to the ground, and are so unaffected by that possible air movement. I'm assuming no wind shear.
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Ah... Yes...Makes sense...
 
Bill Jennings said:
I flew a 182 heavy once.
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I remember that! Or at least the legend of it, I think it was before my time on PoA.

Which has been almost 10 years. :eek:
 
luvflyin said:
What's your companies logic behind a different offset for Captains and FOs?
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I'm guessing that since the selection of 0, R1, or R2 is suppose to be random, they think that having the Capt set R1, F/O set R2, (and presumably those who forget set 0?) produces the desired distribution.
 
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