[A, sort of]California is desiccating![A, sort of]

denverpilot said:
ROFL... I'd love to see the populist idiots pull that off.

Kick all the farmers out for "fairness" and see what the farmers in other States start charging you for your food.
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They'll charge the market rate plus shipping and that's all. It's global economy. Farmers don't hold any special cards.
 
MAKG1 said:
Umm, there are several errors in here.

We do have senior water rights. You're describing the State Water Project allocation for junior rights allocated after 1914. If that's all there were, the problem might be simpler.
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The problem isn't even Sr vs Jr rights. Study the 1994 Monterey agreement and the events surrounding it, but you'll want to sit down first. We basically gave the big agri corps a license to dictate water prices and allocation throughout the entire state. We have water, but we can't get it to the areas that need it most.
 
Dav8or said:
They'll charge the market rate plus shipping and that's all. It's global economy. Farmers don't hold any special cards.
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They do when you need to eat. It's significantly different than non-needs.

It'd never get that far anyway. The second you seriously tried to toss all the farmers off of their land, those transporting the groceries to you from other places would park the trucks and let the stuff rot on the dock if they have any brains.

What's to keep populists like you from deciding they can be thrown off their land, and stripped of their livelihood, too?

Only a Californian could come up with such a nutty plan - "Hey guys, because there's more of us, let's make the cities our priority and send all the farmers packing! Who needs em?"

LOL. Amazing. Seriously. That's the kind of stuff that has everyone laughing at you.

The reality is, you wouldn't have to wait for the business owners to do it. Seeing a golden opportunity created by your shortsightedness, other State's politicians would quickly set up a California export tax to be passed along to you claiming "hardships" of some sort to make it all seem quite moral and legal. They'd absolutely love you guys for doing it.

California could respond by taxing movies and iPhones. Uh Oh. We'd all figure out how to do without, pretty quickly. You'd still need food.
 
Dav8or said:
Depends on how you define "fair". Most people in America define it in a populous way, meaning that which benefits the most people. Therefore yes, the large urban centers should take precedent over the farmers. The whole "farmers feed the people" argument is moot now. Food is imported from all over the country and all over the world. We won't starve.

People back in the '80s told the factory workers loosing their jobs to suck it up, "retool" retrain and learn a new trade. Maybe it's time we told California's farmers to do the same. Of course there are numerous other states in the union where you can grow food, so if farmers still want to farm, they can move, just like their forefathers did.
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The problem with that position is that the farmers actually have a more rational basis for being where they are than do the people in the cities: The land has been shown to be suitable for the production of various crops that may not grow as well in other parts of the country, so there is some extent to which the land is uniquely suited to those particular farming activities.

That really can't be said about the industries more associated with urban areas. Crappy movies can be made, phones and microchips designed, airplanes built, and personal data mined elsewhere just as easily as those things are done in California. There is no way in which California's land mass is more suitable to iPhone designing or Google eavesdropping than any other land mass.

In any event, California's cities, as you point out, are mainly located by the sea. Desal plants are the most obvious solution. Nuclear-powered desal plants would make even more sense because you not only get the water, but the power. Add on HTSE and you can even generate some hydrogen. But nuclear-powered desal plants will never be approved because nuclear = bad is a cardinal doctrine in the religion of the Left.

Rich
 
Florida Cracker said:
I spent some time in Israel looking at how they integrate agriculture into the existing landscape and found their methods of using and conserving water to be very old fashioned, but common sense at the same time. Their farms produce enormous amounts of food for the conditions, which is why the bleeping muslims are so damned jealous and aggressive about getting their hands on Israeli lands.
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You've one up on me, since I only read about this stuff. But nonetheless the Israelis are getting their water out of the Jordan river at the expense of their neighbors. The next war there won't be over oil, it'll be over water. And the one after that, too. You can't drink oil.

This stuff is going to get way, way worse. The snowpack in the Himalayas is disappearing. When its gone the fresh water supply for a third of humanity will go with it.
 
steingar said:
You've one up on me, since I only read about this stuff. But nonetheless the Israelis are getting their water out of the Jordan river at the expense of their neighbors. The next war there won't be over oil, it'll be over water. And the one after that, too. You can't drink oil.

This stuff is going to get way, way worse. The snowpack in the Himalayas is disappearing. When its gone the fresh water supply for a third of humanity will go with it.
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IF you are really interested in some serious engineering, you have to walk around under the Old City of Jerusalem and see how Herod-the-Great designed the water system. It is amazing, even thousands of years later.

Then you and your wife need to take a walk along the water course he designed to get water from underneath downtown Jerusalem to the Jerico crossroads, seventeen miles away. Truly awe inspiring.

As for farming, most of it took place - at the time I spent there - in the north, which makes sense, since the south is mostly dessert. The yields per acre are unbelievable.
 
Dav8or said:
Depends on how you define "fair". Most people in America define it in a populous way, meaning that which benefits the most people. Therefore yes, the large urban centers should take precedent over the farmers. The whole "farmers feed the people" argument is moot now. Food is imported from all over the country and all over the world. We won't starve.

.
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Hey I get the idea of the majority rules, and yes we can buy food from other parts of the world, although I don't think it is the best idea to keep sending more money to support other countries economies and not ours.

But hey why not....we do it all the time then complain about it.

All industries are not just about that particular industry, there are many other jobs associated with and generated by every industry. America can't survive as a service industry or afford to lose any more.

A side note, most of what the farmers buy ie tractors, trucks, harvesters and equipment are made right here in the good ole USA. Jobs baby.
Where's that Iphone, computer, TV, table, car of yours made...................

The word myopic comes to mind. Pretty soon we will producers of nothing. At least we were good at producing food which we can eat.
 
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china once referred to the US as their "farm" and Europe their "boutique." Lots of progressives seem to like it that way.
 
1RTK1 said:
Hey I get the idea of the majority rules, and yes we can buy food from other parts of the world, although I don't think it is the best idea to keep sending more money to support other countries economies and not ours.

But hey why not....we do it all the time then complain about it.

All industries are not just about that particular industry, there are many other jobs associated with and generated by every industry. America can't survive as a service industry or afford to lose any more.

The word myopic comes to mind. Pretty soon we will producers of nothing. At least we were good at producing food which we can eat.
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Other parts of the US produce plenty of food. California could disappear tomorrow and the rest of us wouldn't starve. What makes no sense at all is to grow food in areas unsuitable for food production just to say we did. Better to let people who live in permissive climates do it.

A nation that exports food and imports technology is by definition third world.
 
steingar said:
A nation that exports food and imports technology is by definition third world.
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You mean, like New Zealand?

That's the nicest third world country I've ever been to.

The US has long been an exporter of food, and most of the technology has come from Asia since the 70s.
 
You have no clue about farming, why do you think what is grown in kalifornia is grown there and not in other parts of the country?? Because of the climate and soil conditions are perfect for it here and no where else....................

You are right that if kalifornia disappeared we would not starve but we might be a little hungry at times and would not have the variety of foods to eat.. Which would be very expensive.

A nation that only exports intellectual technology and produces little will soon be short lived................
 
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denverpilot said:
They do when you need to eat. It's significantly different than non-needs.

It'd never get that far anyway. The second you seriously tried to toss all the farmers off of their land, those transporting the groceries to you from other places would park the trucks and let the stuff rot on the dock if they have any brains.

What's to keep populists like you from deciding they can be thrown off their land, and stripped of their livelihood, too?

Only a Californian could come up with such a nutty plan - "Hey guys, because there's more of us, let's make the cities our priority and send all the farmers packing! Who needs em?"

LOL. Amazing. Seriously. That's the kind of stuff that has everyone laughing at you.

The reality is, you wouldn't have to wait for the business owners to do it. Seeing a golden opportunity created by your shortsightedness, other State's politicians would quickly set up a California export tax to be passed along to you claiming "hardships" of some sort to make it all seem quite moral and legal. They'd absolutely love you guys for doing it.

California could respond by taxing movies and iPhones. Uh Oh. We'd all figure out how to do without, pretty quickly. You'd still need food.
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Whoa! Wow, You have a vivid imagination. Who said anything about tossing anybody off their land??! I certainly didn't. They can stay and farm or do whatever, the point being they shouldn't get to dictate water policy. They have gotten a sweetheart deal for over a century and it's time to reevaluate that.

This is now a global economy with a global network of shipping and freight. We no longer have to eat food that is produced right next to us. That may be desirable, but it is not required. So if California doesn't have enough water to support the population and this big farming enterprise, the farmers might have to go look where there is water, or at least pay a fair market price for the water they do use. If we need to build desal plants so that everyone has the water they need, they need to share in these costs.

I don't have anything against farmers and I like local grown as well as Made in USA, but they need to be on par with the rest of us and not subsidized. If that means that their produce will no longer be price competitive with the rest of the world, then they will either have to learn to be more efficient, find a place with cheaper water, or get new jobs. Just like all the factory workers had to.
 
1RTK1 said:
You have no clue about farming, why do you think what is grown in kalifornia is grown there and not in other parts of the country?? Because of the climate and soil conditions are perfect for it here and no where else....................
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You are right, I know little about farming except that it takes water. Yes, there are lots of crops that are grown in California and no where else in America. Thing is they can be grown in plenty of other places, and the markets for such things are far more global than they used to be. Surprised you would be the one complaining the loudest, my diet is likely to suffer far more.

1RTK1 said:
You are right that if kalifornia disappeared we would not starve but we might be a little hungry at times and would not have the variety of foods to eat.. Which would be very expensive.
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We wouldn't even be hungry. I'd be surprised if my state alone couldn't provide all the food for the US. We Americans are very good at growning food. You are right, we'd (actually, we'll if conditions persist) have to import these things, and they'll cost more. I honestly don't worry about it. I suspect I spend more on my airplane than I do on my food. Vegetarians are cheap to feed though.

1RTK1 said:
A nation that only exports intellectual technology and produces little will soon be short lived................
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A nation that exports technology and imports food will do fine so long as it keeps exporting. What you utterly forget is that America is vast, and the majority of it is really good farmland.
 
RJM62 said:
In any event, California's cities, as you point out, are mainly located by the sea. Desal plants are the most obvious solution. Nuclear-powered desal plants would make even more sense because you not only get the water, but the power. Add on HTSE and you can even generate some hydrogen. But nuclear-powered desal plants will never be approved because nuclear = bad is a cardinal doctrine in the religion of the Left.

Rich
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Sadly, you are correct. Nuclear is a toxic word in California politics. I believe the above plan is absolutely correct for California, but it is a tough sell. It needs desperate times and an awesome salesman to pull it off. If we do have a big El Nino this year, that'll set us back another decade in terms of moving forward with sustainable water supply.
 
Dav8or said:
or get new jobs. Just like all the factory workers had to.
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Off topic and not concerning water or farming, that statement really scares me.
Pretty soon we won't have any jobs because we can not compete with other countries cheap labor. It has been happening for a loooong time already.
You can point to unions, politicians, trade agreements, etc. which open a whole can of worms not related to this thread.
Unfortunately the chickens will come home to roost. You can NOT sustain a country on a service type economy. Losing even more of our GDP to other countries is going kill our once great nation.
 
Dav8or said:
Sadly, you are correct. Nuclear is a toxic word in California politics. I believe the above plan is absolutely correct for California, but it is a tough sell. It needs desperate times and an awesome salesman to pull it off. If we do have a big El Nino this year, that'll set us back another decade in terms of moving forward with sustainable water supply.
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That is 100% correct.

steingar said:
A nation that exports technology and imports food will do fine so long as it keeps exporting. .
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We have a major problem then. All you have to look at is our trade deficit to see we are not doing all that well by your statement. I am not willing to give one more red cent to anyone from our GDP pie. It doesn't matter wetther it be farming or widget making, we can't afford it any longer.
 
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1RTK1 said:
Off topic and not concerning water or farming, that statement really scares me.
Pretty soon we won't have any jobs because we can not compete with other countries cheap labor. It has been happening for a loooong time already.
You can point to unions, politicians, trade agreements, etc. which open a whole can of worms not related to this thread.
Unfortunately the chickens will come home to roost. You can NOT sustain a country on a service type economy. Losing even more of our GDP to other countries is going kill our once great nation.
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Buddy.....

We are on life support now.... Let the Feds raise interest rates and the countries who hold our debt will overwhelm us with interest payments...

If it goes sideways like in 1980-1982 and we see 20% interest, my guess is we will sink into a non recoverable depression... IMHO..

Time will tell, but I have ZERO faith in the future...:sad::sad:
 
1RTK1 said:
Off topic and not concerning water or farming, that statement really scares me.
Pretty soon we won't have any jobs because we can not compete with other countries cheap labor. It has been happening for a loooong time already.
You can point to unions, politicians, trade agreements, etc. which open a whole can of worms not related to this thread.
Unfortunately the chickens will come home to roost. You can NOT sustain a country on a service type economy. Losing even more of our GDP to other countries is going kill our once great nation.
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Oh, I agree with you. I argued this point decades ago when people were first embracing "Made in Japan" and they all said the lazy union factory workers could just go to night school, learn something and get a real job. Sadly it didn't quite work out that way and the country has suffered for it.

Now the problem is 10x worse with "Made in China". The everyday super low prices afforded by Chinese production have stretched the diminishing dollars of the American middle class and helped mask the fact that over all, we are doing worse as a country. We have lots of cheap disposable junk in our houses, but no real wealth. Things that can't just be imported from China, like real estate, retirement funds, savings, etc are out of reach for millions of Americans, but I can buy a right angle grinder from Harbor Freight for $20 or a big screen flat TV at Target for only $200. :rolleyes2:

We are at a point now where even if the average consumer wanted to buy "Made in USA" (trust nearly all don't) they likely couldn't afford it. They would have to go deeper in debt to do so. And that's the other thing that has masked the decline of the middle class, cheap, easy credit... but that's a different rant.
 
N801BH said:
Buddy.....

We are on life support now.... Let the Feds raise interest rates and the countries who hold our debt will overwhelm us with interest payments...

If it goes sideways like in 1980-1982 and we see 20% interest, my guess is we will sink into a non recoverable depression... IMHO..

Time will tell, but I have ZERO faith in the future...:sad::sad:
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Yep. America now lives and breaths on credit. We cannot break the borrowing habit. We want it all. As long as we control the world's currency standard and set the interest rates, we can survive a little while longer. The future does not look bright for us.

I'm actually surprised that somebody doesn't make a movie like Al Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth" about the real threat to America, our national and personal finances. That movie really seemed to motivate the climate change folks, maybe a movie would actually get a discussion going about the sad state of financial affairs in the mainstream. :dunno:
 
Since that was decades ago, and a microcosm of rhe whole issue, a little planning and preparation in between would offset the crisis now.
 
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