A new high

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by Dave Siciliano, Oct 19, 2012.

  1. Dave Siciliano

    Dave Siciliano Final Approach

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    Took the KA up to FL270 yesterday to catch over a 100 knot tail wind. That's the highest I've flown my own plane. Asked for higher, but Center said they were unable. I was on a pretty busy route from Dallas to Atlanta; so, there was a lot of traffic and I was pretty slow up there. Still a lot of fun.

    Best,

    Dave
     

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  2. wabower

    wabower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    How much higher were you planning to go? Wouldn't RVSM limitations preclude much more altitude?

     
  3. SCCutler

    SCCutler Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    ...just leave the transponder off when you go that high... :D
     
  4. nddons

    nddons Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Nice panel. Why the dual transponders?
     
  5. kgruber

    kgruber En-Route

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    ALL big expensive airplanes have dual transponders. They are important.
     
  6. Threefingeredjack

    Threefingeredjack En-Route

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    Yup. In Class A losing your transponder is a real bummer.
     
  7. Dave Siciliano

    Dave Siciliano Final Approach

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    I'd like to fly at the certified ceiling just to see how it performs. Wouldn't make sense for a trip, but would like to compare performance to book. I know folks have gotten waivers for tests. Would just like to get up to FL300 for about 15 minutes and log performance.

    Best,

    Dave
     
  8. docmirror

    docmirror Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Cowboy - yeehah!
    What's a 'KA'?

    Killer Artichoke.
    Known Aircraft.
    Kansas Animals.
     
  9. Dave Siciliano

    Dave Siciliano Final Approach

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    Redundancy. I have one and two. I've lost a transponder in Class A before and it's bothersome for both the pilot and controllers. Can't come back into Class B unless they have an image of some sort and it may not be there without a transponder.

    Best,

    Dave
     
  10. Dave Siciliano

    Dave Siciliano Final Approach

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    King Air. This is a C90 with -21 engines.

    Best,

    Dave
     
  11. Kelvin

    Kelvin En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Kicking ground speeds on Flight Aware...that's awesome!
     
  12. tonycondon

    tonycondon Gastons CRO (Chief Dinner Reservation Officer)

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    the fuel burn on one trip of having to stay below 10K due to a failed transponder would probably pay for the second transponder.
     
  13. wabower

    wabower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Whatever blows your dress. After flying our B-200 at FL330 (dog) I was never curious to see how much worse it could be at FL350 SC. Whatever it was I was willing to take their word for it.
     
  14. HPNPilot1200

    HPNPilot1200 En-Route

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    Nice, Dave! What was your fuel burn up there?
     
  15. tonycondon

    tonycondon Gastons CRO (Chief Dinner Reservation Officer)

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    yea how was the handlling up there? I remember the 421 being pretty mushy at FL250. never went any higher than that.
     
  16. Dave Siciliano

    Dave Siciliano Final Approach

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    About 25 a side. Normally, on a longer trip I can plan on just over 60 and hour (total) if I fly in the low 20s. 75 for a short (one hour trip or high teens). The plane is faster in mid teens, as one climbs, they give up a bit of speed for better fuel consumption.

    Best,

    Dave
     
  17. Dave Siciliano

    Dave Siciliano Final Approach

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    It didn't feel bad Tony, but the ceiling is FL300 and I was below that. IFR on a busy route; so, I didn't really get to do any maneuvering but standard rate stuff. Not quite as sharp as lower, but it didn't feel mushy to me. IAS was still 143 up there. You probably had a better feel for your plane with all the time you were flying. I'm must doing a long trip and several short ones a month. This really is an SUV compared to the baron.

    Best,

    Dave
     
  18. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    #bandozer
    Those lower-powered PT-6s tend to run out of power in the mid to high 20s.

    Back in January, I filed for FL250 in the Cheyenne to get an 80 kt tailwind. The owner's response was "You're a retard. Nobody flies this plane up there." 300 kts over the ground doing 200 pph a side, and he said "Wow, this is awesome!" At FL230 our TAS would've been 10 kts higher, but the tailwind woudlve been 10 kts lower, and higher fuel burn. For an 1100 nm trip, it worked great.

    But, like Wayne, I had no desire to go higher. Above FL250 all she could muster was 500 fpm climb. This is for full fuel and two people. Sheesh.
     
  19. tonycondon

    tonycondon Gastons CRO (Chief Dinner Reservation Officer)

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    yea the only time we went to FL250 was for an air sampling contract, we were hand flying the whole time which was fun. We never cruised normally much above about 16,000.
     
  20. rpadula

    rpadula En-Route

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    Why don't those ITT needles line up with each other? :devil:
     
  21. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    You're just mean. Especially if Dave's OCD. :)
     
  22. Dave Siciliano

    Dave Siciliano Final Approach

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    As you probably know, once at altitude, I enter a book torque setting which could be limited by ITT. I looked back at this after landing and had torque set about 40 pounds high, meaning both engines made 40 pounds over book before the left temped out. I've never had a twin where both engines performed exactly alike. There has always been some disparity. In this case, the left temps out before the right, but it's at a higher torque setting than book, which is fine. The left engine starts cooler than the right. If you look at N1, left is slightly higher, but not much, etc, etc. Maybe brand new ones do better, but that wasn't the case on our 58P with brand new blue printed engines.

    Best,

    Dave
     
  23. Dave Siciliano

    Dave Siciliano Final Approach

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    We just had those instruments, torque and ITT, jet calibrated, so, they should be very accurate. These engines are over TBO but had a hot section done about 200 hours ago which was fine. We'll just keep running them until they don't make book power, thank you, for up to another 1,600 hours.

    Best,

    Dave
     
  24. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    Yup, Dave's OCD. ;)

    Dave, I think he had read the other thread when you first discovered the issue and were investigating it, and was pulling your leg about it.

    :)
     
  25. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    P.S. Somehow PoA has a mind-reading ability in Jesse and Jason's secret code lair in Nebraska.

    Dave is OCD in the mild fun "dang it, my gauges don't match" way, not the "holy crap" way described in the article linked by Doc Bruce. ;)

    (Good lord. I joke in this thread and then immediately open that one. Cue spooky Halloween music.)
     
  26. Dave Siciliano

    Dave Siciliano Final Approach

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    Yes, every time I've purchased a plane, I've been told what great shape it's in, but have always had a string of things that needed to be corrected. Guess I just let stream of conscious go when working through them. With the KA, even though I had a wonderful seller that helped with a lot, I've had to trouble shoot a lot and fix things not anticipated. The torque and ITT gauges were among those. My mechanic had checked those about a year before when he did a hot section; yet, the gauges weren't working correctly when I was logging power settings. Turns out the left ITT gauge had developed incorrect resistance and a couple probes had given up the ghost. I finally have worked through all the issues except one gremlin involving cabin heat and cooling which only surfaces intermittently (and it never seems to be when I have my mechanic look at it). This is a wonderful bird, but very expensive to fly. It's like an SUV and only really makes sense when flying several folks and stuff.

    Thanks,

    Dave
     
  27. HPNPilot1200

    HPNPilot1200 En-Route

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    I've had similar experiences as well. The C421 riley conversion (PT6A-112s) that I fly does the same thing. The right engine always runs about 20-40 degrees higher ITT and 2-3% higher Ng with the fuel flows matched on both engines.
     
  28. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    #bandozer
    The ITT mismatch is to be expected between turbines. What ends up happening is that all the various clearances and such within the engine contribute to the power output and also the efficiency of energy being extracted from the exhaust stream. Naturally, there is some variability in engine production, which gets worse with age. It's nothing to worry about, just natural variation.

    You also can see differences in starting behavior based on battery location, condition of the starter/generator, and whether you turn on the first generator during the start of the second engine (standard procedure on the Cheyenne).

    As Dave says, no twin has engines that run exactly the same.
     
  29. Dave Siciliano

    Dave Siciliano Final Approach

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    Ted: you're certainly way past me on the technical part, but wouldn't some of it possibly be temp measurement also? I have probes on the ITT measurement that are thermocouples. Both location and the actual probe can't be exactly alike.

    Getting used to flying this has been a real kick. Still love the faster climb, better cabin differential, extra room and creature comforts.

    Beech really over designed this thing. There is a gross weight STC available for about 7 to 800 pounds. All one has to do is put 10 ply tires on it, place placards and do some paperwork. It currently has a 1,000 payload with full fuel. The STC pretty allows six full seats and lots of stuff. Of course, one has to pay to it, but really nice if one carries lots of folks with full fuel.

    Best,

    Dave
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2012
  30. Everskyward

    Everskyward Administrator Management Council Member

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    I've learned that even a brand-new megadollar airplanes come off the line with glitches.
     
  31. ronnieh

    ronnieh Cleared for Takeoff

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    Good morning Dave, Just out of curiosity what was the temp difference with matched torque, when the left temped out?

    The mis matches can be any of the above and/or a compressor section getting weak. You temp out when the compressers will no longer pump enough volumn for cooling. The lack of volumn could be a weak turbine section in that it required more exhaust for a given torque, or both or any combination of the above items.

    Even two engines, freshly overhauled, and matched on a test stand can still have minor differences displayed in the cockpit. IMO, with fresh engines I would hope not more than 10 deg at temp limit and perhaps 3-5 pounds on fuel flow with matched torque (assuming torque indication is correct). Bottom line is it is very difficuly to get any two mechanical items to be exactly the same. It is an imperfect world.
     
  32. Dave Siciliano

    Dave Siciliano Final Approach

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    Ronnie, there's a pic at the beginning. That torque setting was 40 more than book.

    Dave
     
  33. ronnieh

    ronnieh Cleared for Takeoff

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    Odd (I guess) temp is 40 deg high (I think) and fuel flow is low. Well, not odd, just interesting.
     
  34. 35 AoA

    35 AoA Cleared for Takeoff

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    My jet is non-RVSM capable. We almost always get approved into RVSM airspace anyway, as long as we are not on the east coast and not during peak traffic hours. Thank god cause it is pretty hard to 2 leg it coast to coast unless you get into the 30's at a minimum with a single centerline drop tank and wing pylons (standard configuration). Actually, we normally even got RVSM going from Miramar to the China Lake/Edwards ranges as well, straight over LAX.
     
  35. wabower

    wabower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It can work both ways. I've known guys whose plane had two fresh engines engines and a fresh annual who thought their plane was in great shape. Until the next flight.

     
  36. Dave Siciliano

    Dave Siciliano Final Approach

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    Don't put too much weight on the difference in the FF guauges Ronnie. We've worked those systems pretty hard to get the gauges right. Funny thing is when we fill the tanks, one side is within a few gallons of the other.

    Best,

    Dave
     
  37. wabower

    wabower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Which as I recall was true when you bought it.

     
  38. Dave Siciliano

    Dave Siciliano Final Approach

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    I didn't mean to infer anything negative. This plane was in excellent shape but hadn't been flown much the last few years. A lot of what we did was fixing things that some others many have been content with or had just failed due to lack of use. We wanted it all working correctly. The ADF and RADAR altimeter were kaput when we flew it. We just had them removed. Didn't mean to leave the impression it wasn't a great plane to begin with. Nice paint, engines more than make book, nice interior and avionics, etc.

    Best,

    Dave
     
  39. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    #bandozer
    Absolutely true that the measurement can be part of it. The assumption I should have mentioned is that the ITT measurements are accurate (at least as much as they can be), and so I was talking about what can impact the true temperature in there.

    Location of the probes on the two engines (left vs. right) should be the same. I don't know about PT6s specifically since that's not what I deal with much, but on the turbines I deal with, the location of the ITT probes is a feature of the housings that is supposed to be in the same location, unlike the piston engines where they get drilled into the exhaust and have much variation. On the engines I deal with, it's also a rake of probes - again, I don't know about the PT6. So the real variation should be in the probes themselves, as well as the inherent variation of the system caused by number of probes, burn characteristics, etc.

    I loved flying the Cheyenne, and I imagine the King Air is similar. I don't miss flying the Commander (really didn't like that thing at all), but I do miss the Cheyenne.

    I'd be all over that, for sure. Think of all the extra dogs! ;)
     
  40. Dave Siciliano

    Dave Siciliano Final Approach

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    When we fixed a couple probes, we had to open the hot section and they were placed very precisely compared to a piston; still, I've sure there's some variation. Much better than a piston though.
    Yep, 1700 pound payload would be a lot of dogs (g). Might run into some constraints as to weight limits in certain sections of the plane. I can see the crates stacked on top of one another now!

    Best,

    Dave