A concerning trend with Atlantic FBO management

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MountainDude

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Update after reading the first ~10 comments: it's amazing to me that people are coming up with all kinds of excuses for this trend, which I think will significantly contribute to GA's decline. It's why AOPA can spend $50M per year on trips and PR, instead of fighting for us; the pilots are to blame. Oh well.

Another PE firm invested into Atlantic, at $10B valuation.
www.ainonline.com

Apollo Funds Acquires Major Share in Atlantic Aviation from KKR | AIN

KKR purchased the FBO chain in 2021
www.ainonline.com www.ainonline.com

My concern is that Atlantic will be even more aggressive at limiting GA pilots from using airports' transient parking spots and entry/exit gates, to force us to go through the FBO and pay the fees. I really wish that AOPA fought hard for a system-wide access to aprons by pilots, without having to go through FBOs.
 
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…or that when you upgrade your Malibu to a JetProp, your ramp fee goes up by 10x for some reason… surely that’s against grant assurances (ie, “discrimination”)
 
I wish I could enter any public port with my boat and be guaranteed a free dock because the harbor gets improvement funding from government grants.

The reality is the airport authorities rent to those FBO who agree to return the highest levels of revenue to the airport, To do that, the FBO has to charge you.

At some airports today, the FBO operates on a percentage of contractual fees established by the airport. The FBO can’t waive these fees unless the FBO is paying your fee for you.

AOPA knows this. They opt for the evil FBO BS because they think it sells memberships. I wish AOPA would educate their members on how airports are really funded and the security requirements required by the FAA.
 
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Our airport owned by the county it's all about fuel flow and how much a gallon they receive.
Sorry but your piston single doesn't burn enough fuel to bother with. We have Atlantic on the field..

Suntex and Safe Harbor are doing the same and buying up marinas and rebuilding and increasing rents.

Bob Crandall former American Airlines CEO once said to Congress why should 185 people on board an airliner wait to land behind a cessna 172 with 2 people on board?

Nothing new.
 
Over the last 6 decades I watched people fly into an airport in their single engine whatever, pull up on the FBO ramp, use the facilities, drink up the free coffee, borrow the crew car and go to lunch, come back (and don't put any gas in the crew car) slurp down some more coffee, use the restroom, then walk out to the plane, fire up and leave.

Then when FBO's started charging the indignation started.

Here's the deal, if the airport has an FBO that wants compensation for the use of it's ramp and facilities and you are unwilling to pay, don't go there. This is very discoverable before you go there. Typically there are other airports nearby that are cheaper, maybe a bit out of the way, but cheaper.
bonefishpete said:
Suntex and Safe Harbor are doing the same and buying up marinas and rebuilding and increasing rents.
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The last marina I had a slip in on the weekend we would watch the boats come in (from the boat ramp down the road) find an empty slip, tie up and the occupants head to the marina pool to hang out, use the facilities and enjoy their day, come back to the slip, leave bags of empty beer cans and bottles and takeoff. The marina management started requiring ID (marina tenants only) to use the pool and the harbor manager patrolled the slips and stopped letting people freeload.

Same indignation started. "How dare they!" "Their gas is too expensive!" "The daily dock fee is outrageous!"
 
Doc Holliday said:
Over the last 6 decades I watched people fly into an airport in their single engine whatever, pull up on the FBO ramp, use the facilities, drink up the free coffee, borrow the crew car and go to lunch, come back (and don't put any gas in the crew car) slurp down some more coffee, use the restroom, then walk out to the plane, fire up and leave.

Then when FBO's started charging the indignation started.

Here's the deal, if the airport has an FBO that wants compensation for the use of it's ramp and facilities and you are unwilling to pay, don't go there. This is very discoverable before you go there. Typically there are other airports nearby that are cheaper, maybe a bit out of the way, but cheaper.
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You are completely missing the point of this post. I agree that FBOs should charge for their services.
This post is about being able to park your plane, pay the airport parking fees, exit the airport and return back to the plane without having to deal with the FBO. Once FBOs are the sole controller of this process, you have to pay them whether you use their services or not.
 
Pretty sure Apollo also owns Modern Aviation. So they real have a grip on airports across the country
 
MountainDude said:
My concern is that Atlantic will be even more aggressive at limiting GA pilots from using airports' transient parking spots and entry/exit gates, to force us to go through the FBO and pay the fees. I really wish that AOPA fought hard for a system-wide access to aprons by pilots, without having to go through FBOs.
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Except the people you need to blame is the airport management authority who approved the contract for the FBO to operate in this manner. This is why its very important to attend airport commission meetings if you really are concerned. Regardless, this shift in ramp control has been going on for 10+ years as recreational GA declines and business class/commercial GA explodes and to service this shift Atlantic, Signature, and others have been "buying" up FBOs across the US on a regular basis. And when you throw in the loss of multiple local GA airports every year, this shift will only get more pronounced.
 
MountainDude said:
You are completely missing the point of this post. I agree that FBOs should charge for their services.
This post is about being able to park your plane, pay the airport parking fees, exit the airport and return back to the plane without having to deal with the FBO. Once FBOs are the sole controller of this process, you have to pay them whether you use their services or not.
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So you want to go back to your plane without going through the FBO building?

If you’re not based there with no gate card it’s not happening at larger airports.
 
Bell206 said:
Except the people you need to blame is the airport management authority who approved the contract for the FBO to operate in this manner. This is why its very important to attend airport commission meetings if you really are concerned. Regardless, this shift in ramp control has been going on for 10+ years as recreational GA declines and business class/commercial GA explodes and to service this shift Atlantic, Signature, and others have been "buying" up FBOs across the US on a regular basis. And when you throw in the loss of multiple local GA airports every year, this shift will only get more pronounced.
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Blaming airports is not the solution. The solution is for AOPA to fight for access without FBOs' involvement.
 
bonefishpete said:
So you want to go back to your plane without going through the FBO building?

If you’re not based there with no gate card it’s not happening at larger airports.
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Yes, I want to get back to the plane without going through the FBO. There should be a combo lock at the gate. This is what AOPA needs to fight for. I can easily imaging that once FBOs control access, they will raise prices. There are already examples of $40 ramp fees reported by people who do not need any FBO services. When it gets to $100, it will be another way of killing the GA.
 
MountainDude said:
Blaming airports is not the solution. The solution is for AOPA to fight for access without FBOs' involvement.
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Except the airport is responsible to TSA for the security access system and the FBOs involvement or lack of involvement. That's regulatory. Don't know what AOPA can do at the local level and at every airport? Unless you mean for AOPA to pressure congress to do something?
 
MountainDude said:
You are completely missing the point of this post. I agree that FBOs should charge for their services.
This post is about being able to park your plane, pay the airport parking fees, exit the airport and return back to the plane without having to deal with the FBO. Once FBOs are the sole controller of this process, you have to pay them whether you use their services or not.
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No, I fully understand.

If that is your problem, the airport authority is where you go. However, dedicating a ramp and area for free parking is hard to justify. Maybe you can convince the airport authority this is a viable plan.

Good Luck
 
Bell206 said:
Except the airport is responsible to TSA for the security access system and the FBOs involvement or lack of involvement. That's regulatory. Don't know what AOPA can do at the local level and at every airport? Unless you mean for AOPA to pressure congress to do something?
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Do whatever it takes. That's what they claim to do - protect GA.
 
Doc Holliday said:
No, I fully understand.

If that is your problem, the airport authority is where you go. However, dedicating a ramp and area for free parking is hard to justify. Maybe you can convince the airport authority this is a viable plan.

Good Luck
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Not asking for anything free. Happy to pay the airport/county a parking fee. Just dont want FBOs to control access to the ramp.
 
MountainDude said:
Do whatever it takes. That's what they claim to do - protect GA.
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Do you believe the numbers of people who are affected by the required FBO control of access points at an airport are high enough to support this?
 
MountainDude said:
You are completely missing the point of this post. I agree that FBOs should charge for their services.
This post is about being able to park your plane, pay the airport parking fees, exit the airport and return back to the plane without having to deal with the FBO. Once FBOs are the sole controller of this process, you have to pay them whether you use their services or not.
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What you are missing is the FBO is the general aviation terminal operated for the airport by the FBO. The FBO is assigned the responsibility of collecting fees and to providing gate security functions. You want a separate terminal operated solely by the airport. Good luck with that.
 
Someone has to collect the fees. I'm fine with the FBO being the agent for that, and also collect a fair profit for operating. I just don't want to pay ridiculous fees for basic access (which thus far I've been fortunate on that front).
 
midwestpa24 said:
At airports with TSA security requirements, someone has to control access. A keypad gate code does not meet those requirements.
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Sure, maybe nothing can be done for such airports, but that is a minority. Let's not focus on what cannot be done.
 
Bell206 said:
Do you believe the numbers of people who are affected by the required FBO control of access points at an airport are high enough to support this?
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I dont know. AOPA should find out, then decide.
 
Doc Holliday said:
So you want the airport authority to run it? At a loss?
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Whatever the money the FBO would give the airport, pilots should pay directly to the airport. So the airport would not see any reduction in revenue. I just want to avoid paying the FBO for no services provided.
 
Clip4 said:
What you are missing is the FBO is the general aviation terminal operated for the airport by the FBO. The FBO is assigned the responsibility of collecting fees and to providing gate security functions. You want a separate terminal operated solely by the airport. Good luck with that.
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No, I do not want that. I want exactly what I stated earlier. Plenty of airports have self-service payment for parking and self-service access gate. 100% of the payment goes to the airport. Why is that so hard to comprehend?
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
Someone has to collect the fees. I'm fine with the FBO being the agent for that, and also collect a fair profit for operating. I just don't want to pay ridiculous fees for basic access (which thus far I've been fortunate on that front).
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My main concern is that once an FBO controls all access, they can charge ridiculous fees. That is the whole point of this thread and what I hope AOPA can prevent.
Also, no one has to collect the fees. Even in 1990s you could drop a check off inside a box. Today, you can pay the airport in many different ways.
 
fwiw, KSSF had (back in the milk and honey days of pre covid, circa 2014) a city-owned terminal funded by taxpayers. I used it to park and ride for half a year to commute every weekend while TDY. It was glorious. I look back on those days very fondly, I still had a positive view of the space; it wasn't all that long ago in the aggregate.

KOUN also has a public ramp with a gate code. Left the arrow AOG on it for weeks and came back, nobody batted an eye. FBO still gets my fuel business when I land, it was all very functional.

Good enough for my lived experience to assert that there's no such "need" for FBOs monopolizing access to the Public Good in order to afford the public said usufruct.
 
Bell206 said:
Well, it seems AOPA has already been working on this for the past 8 years and is willing to assist with any local issues. Maybe contact the AOPA for the latest info and help with your local airport?

View attachment 154731
https://www.aopa.org/advocacy/airpo...ders/tsa-airport-access-security-requirements
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AOPA is great about writing articles like this one. They need to accomplish things, then post articles about specific improvements that were made for GA and how they contributed to it.
A single person can post the same content as AOPA about the problems. That is not how GA moves forward.
 
MountainDude said:
AOPA is great about writing articles like this one. They need to accomplish things, then post articles about specific improvements that were made for GA and how they contributed to it.
A single person can post the same content as AOPA about the problems. That is not how GA moves forward.
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So how do you propose to move GA forward? How do you propose to fix the problem in the OP?
 
Doc Holliday said:
So how do you propose to move GA forward? How do you propose to fix the problem in the OP?
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I don't know. That is not my expertise. But we do have a GA representative with a $50M annual budget that should be understanding the potential impact of this (and all other issues) on GA, then work with whichever govt body (the Congress?) to ensure that in non-TSA airports pilots must be provided with transient parking and gate access where 100% of the payments go to the airport. Pretty simple goal.
 
midwestpa24 said:
At airports with TSA security requirements, someone has to control access. A keypad gate code does not meet those requirements.
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Which airports are those exactly? I assumed they were fields with Part 121 ops. The number of podunk mini-penitentiary airports I land at in the midwest makes me think this definition might be broader than I suppose.
 
MountainDude said:
That is not how GA moves forward.
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Except GA has been moving forward at a rather fast pace and AOPA, Atlantic, Signature, airport commissions, etc. are all moving in a direction to support that growth. Textron even green-lighted a clean-sheet aircraft to service this GA growth with the Beech Denali. The issue here is the recreational side of GA is not part of that growth and has been in decline for quite some time.

I think the fact AOPA along with a number of other pilot associations did address this lack of access and additional costs shows there is intent to assist. But until you and your fellow rec pilots become engaged with airport commissions or congressional reps, the GA groups like Atlantic who do show up at those airport meetings, etc. will win every time. Its simply how the system has always worked.

schmookeeg said:
Which airports are those exactly?
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In general, its scheduled airline ops with aircraft that seat 61+ pax and certain foreign based ops.
 
MountainDude said:
My concern is that Atlantic will be even more aggressive at limiting GA pilots from using airports' transient parking spots and entry/exit gates, to force us to go through the FBO and pay the fees. I really wish that AOPA fought hard for a system-wide access to aprons by pilots, without having to go through FBOs.
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Wading into this discussion from the outside, so forgive my ignorance.

I'd wager most any airport we're talking about is funded from a combination of federal, state, and local dollars. Don't these airports have some responsibility to provide some limited transient service to the taxpayers, free of charge?

Especially if all you want to do is park your plane and walk off the airport grounds?
 
Bell206 said:
Except GA has been moving forward at a rather fast pace and AOPA, Atlantic, Signature, airport commissions, etc. are all moving in a direction to support that growth. Textron even green-lighted a clean-sheet aircraft to service this GA growth with the Beech Denali. The issue here is the recreational side of GA is not part of that growth and has been in decline for quite some time.

I think the fact AOPA along with a number of other pilot associations did address this lack of access and additional costs shows there is intent to assist. But until you and your fellow rec pilots become engaged with airport commissions or congressional reps, the GA groups like Atlantic who do show up at those airport meetings, etc. will win every time. Its simply how the system has always worked.


In general, its scheduled airline ops with aircraft that seat 61+ pax and certain foreign based ops.
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I will do a better job of defining GA in the future. I only meant the recreational part (was not familiar with that term, but makes sense).
We should not have to put in our time to leave work and go to meetings; that is what a representative organization is supposed to do.
 
MountainDude said:
We should not have to put in our time to leave work and go to meetings; that is what a representative organization is supposed to do.
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Except how is that organization going to know how to help you... if you can't explain to them what your specific problem is? I think AOPAs offer for local assistance on this matter is exactly what you are looking for. However, given all of the public negative talk being said about the AOPA by the Part 91 recreational side, I don't think too many issues that you are concerned about are on the AOPA's 10 ten list.
 
I would expect the same as, say, a national park.

Sure, put an airport ranger in a booth. Charge for parking. Let me come and go as appropriate. Some parks have just a drop box, cool too.

Don't let some Luxe Lodge be the only way into the park. Which is what we're swiftly heading to.

After that I assume we're a very short throw to "Airport's closed for a private event, Moose outside shoulda toldja"
 
fasteddie said:
I'd wager most any airport we're talking about is funded from a combination of federal, state, and local dollars. Don't these airports have some responsibility to provide some limited transient service to the taxpayers, free of charge?

Especially if all you want to do is park your plane and walk off the airport grounds?
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Let's take this from an extreme direction. Does O'hare have this obligation? Atlanta? DFW? They are all taxpayer funded to the tune of billions. Where's my free parking at DFW?
 
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