9yo pilot

EppyGA said:
That can't be true, it was on Fox News. :wink2:
Click to expand...
No it just partially true. These are actually 9 year old jihadists expanding the middle east caliphate into the western US!!! :eek::eek::eek: :D:D:D ;) ;)


Seriously though. It is pretty cool. When I was a little older than 9, 13 to be exact, I fell in with a bunch of guys who were into ballooning. I actually started saving my money to buy a balloon and get my certificate. I never actually was able to do that and I would still love to do some ballooning and maybe get a certification one day.
 
As I read the Child Pilot Safety Act, despite the fact that this is an ultralight vehicle, it is still a violation of that Act, which does not limit its applicability to exclude ultralight vehicles. Note that the FAA definition of "aircraft" is "a device that is used or intended to be used for flight in the air," which this vehicle is. Of course, there is little under that law which could be done, since the only penalty therein is revocation of the pilot certificate of the PIC permitting the child to manipulate the controls for the purpose of setting a record, and the PIC in this case doesn't have a pilot certificate to revoke, but it still appears to me to violate the Act.

In addition, I suspect that this might be considered to violate state child endangerment laws.

All in all, I think it's a dumb stunt which suggests the parent's haven't the judgement they should in order to hold FAA pilot certificates. When the kid's 14, he can solo legally.
 
Last edited:
The idea that a 9 year old could build and fly a balloon, it's just hugely inspiring," he said.

The thought that a 7y/o girl could fly a single engine airplane across the U.S. was inspiring as well and look where it got her.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Dubroff
​
 
I hope nothing happens to the kid, but IMHO, this is dangerous, and I have to wonder whether or not the parents are seeking media attention, and how much of that desire is overriding any safety concerns.
 
Gary F said:
The idea that a 9 year old could build and fly a balloon, it's just hugely inspiring," he said.

The thought that a 7y/o girl could fly a single engine airplane across the U.S. was inspiring as well and look where it got her.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Dubroff
​
Click to expand...

Nothing dangerous about that idea, just very poorly executed by an idiot PIC.
 
Ever since the Jessica Dubroff crash where her instructor killed her and himself for the sake of a media op, flying straight into a thunderstorm over town at KCYS when I was a young-pup, I utterly hate these stunts with young kids.

The whole aviation community in Wyoming/Colorado/Nebraska was in utter shock and disbelief that year. We don't need this kind of publicity or stupidity.
 
I question the parents' motives. But they didn't say what the solo is supposed to consist of. If they launch from some desolate part of NM with flat terrain and no trees or power lines for miles, and let him go a mile or two and limit his altitude, it's probably not terribly dangerous. Not necessarily smart, though.
 
jesse said:
Nothing dangerous about that idea, just very poorly executed by an idiot PIC.
Click to expand...
I have a problem with it. This was a stupid publicity stunt. I doubt that the kid (or her parents) really understood the risks. The PIC was under a lot of pressure to make the schedule. What were they trying to prove? That a kid can successfully manipulate the controls of an airplane? What about the decision making involved in flying? The kid had nothing to do with that.
 
Gary F said:
I have a problem with it. This was a stupid publicity stunt. I doubt that the kid (or her parents) really understood the risks. The PIC was under a lot of pressure to make the schedule. What were they trying to prove? That a kid can successfully manipulate the controls of an airplane? What about the decision making involved in flying? The kid had nothing to do with that.
Click to expand...
Exactly. There really is no increased risk because of the kid. It's just the same as taking the kid for an airplane ride. The problem was their judgment which led to the crash. The same bad judgment can lead to the same crash with or without the kid. The kid had nothing to do with it.

If someone wanted me to fly their kid across the country and let their kid manipulate the controls, I'd have no problem with it. I'd give the kid some good instruction. Of course it'd have to be legal (not for a record blah blah). The difference is that I wouldn't go plowing through a thunderstorm.

I taught a 4 year old to fly straight and level and how to make turns..and he didn't even have a headset. Actually, he was easier to teach than some adults I've flown with...
 
Last edited:
I'm confused...where's the danger? Flying ain't hard, and I think the age limits for pilots is overly restrictive anyway.

If I were in Albuquerque still, I'd be there cheering Bobby on (note, that his family is huge in aviation there).

I'll be there in early May for business. If it coincides, I'll make sure to be there.

edit: Also, the Child Pilot Safety Act is just another kneejerk reaction to an accident. "Think of the children!"
 
jesse said:
I taught a 4 year old to fly straight and level and how to make turns..and he didn't even have a headset. Actually, he was easier to teach than some adults I've flown with...
Click to expand...
Ah! Well now we know what demographic your teaching skills are most compatible with!:D:D
 
I agree with Jesse. To put things in to perspective, if I were PIC (or a CFI), I'd rather deal with a nine year old freezing up at the controls than a 250 lb man having a panic attack in the cockpit.
 
Ron Levy said:
As I read the Child Pilot Safety Act, despite the fact that this is an ultralight vehicle, it is still a violation of that Act, which does not limit its applicability to exclude ultralight vehicles. Note that the FAA definition of "aircraft" is "a device that is used or intended to be used for flight in the air," which this vehicle is. Of course, there is little under that law which could be done, since the only penalty therein is revocation of the pilot certificate of the PIC permitting the child to manipulate the controls for the purpose of setting a record, and the PIC in this case doesn't have a pilot certificate to revoke, but it still appears to me to violate the Act.

In addition, I suspect that this might be considered to violate state child endangerment laws.

All in all, I think it's a dumb stunt which suggests the parent's haven't the judgement they should in order to hold FAA pilot certificates. When the kid's 14, he can solo legally.
Click to expand...

As far as I can tell the CPSA only prohibits a licensed pilot in command from letting an unlicensed individual "manipulate the controls" of an aircraft if the PIC knows or shoud know that the unlicensed individual is attempting to set a record etc. In this case, who would be that PIC? During solo flight in an airplane the solo pilot would be PIC, not the CFI on the ground and in this case there's no requirement for a CFI since the aircraft is an ultralight.

Also, I don't see anything in part 103 that sets age limits for ultralight pilots and it wouldn't surprise me to learn that several sub 14 year old individuals have taken flight in some sort of ultralight. Finally, if the CPSA applies to a 9 year old boy soloing an ultralight balloon, it must also prohibit any unlicensed pilot from flying solo in an ultralight if a record of any sort is being attempted since there's no reference to age in the CPSA that I can see other than the title of the act.
 
We truly live in a ridicules, pampered society. Through out history, and in most places in the world today, nine year old children have been routinely performing tasks that in this country, would be in the domain of adults only.

There is absolutely no reason a nine year old should not be able to pilot a balloon, other than the fact that our nations nine year olds have been shielded from taking on any personal responsibility whatsoever. They are coddled and protected most all of their childhood and young adult years.

Myself, I'm 100% for such great adventures, it's what kids should be doing, having adventures, and taking chances. It's a shame American kids are deprived of that.

John
 
John Baker said:
We truly live in a ridicules, pampered society. Through out history, and in most places in the world today, nine year old children have been routinely performing tasks that in this country, would be in the domain of adults only.

There is absolutely no reason a nine year old should not be able to pilot a balloon, other than the fact that our nations nine year olds have been shielded from taking on any personal responsibility whatsoever. They are coddled and protected most all of their childhood and young adult years.

Myself, I'm 100% for such great adventures, it's what kids should be doing, having adventures, and taking chances. It's a shame American kids are deprived of that.

John
Click to expand...

I agree. Just sign the waiver to any emergency assistance should it become needed. Who was that teenage girl that tried to sail around the world last summer?.... A life time of experience and every gadget known to man on the boat that ended up de-masted and upside down in the middle of the night. Oh well, send the American tax payer to pick her up.
 
Ron Levy said:
As I read the Child Pilot Safety Act, despite the fact that this is an ultralight vehicle, it is still a violation of that Act, which does not limit its applicability to exclude ultralight vehicles. Note that the FAA definition of "aircraft" is "a device that is used or intended to be used for flight in the air," which this vehicle is. Of course, there is little under that law which could be done, since the only penalty therein is revocation of the pilot certificate of the PIC permitting the child to manipulate the controls for the purpose of setting a record, and the PIC in this case doesn't have a pilot certificate to revoke, but it still appears to me to violate the Act.

In addition, I suspect that this might be considered to violate state child endangerment laws.

All in all, I think it's a dumb stunt which suggests the parent's haven't the judgement they should in order to hold FAA pilot certificates. When the kid's 14, he can solo legally.
Click to expand...

The way I read it is the Act does not come into effect unless there is an intent to set a record.
 
John Baker said:
We truly live in a ridicules, pampered society. Through out history, and in most places in the world today, nine year old children have been routinely performing tasks that in this country, would be in the domain of adults only.
Click to expand...

Precisely.

B1EC19324A4340638C4457E577997CC5.jpg
 
I'd rather see him doing something like this, than vegetating away on video games... I personally don't think it's wrong.

Ryan
 
I worked as a pin boy in a bowling alley when I was eleven years old. Two lanes, either five pin or ten pin, or both. I was paid ten cents a line. The bowling alley was half a mile from a university.

A strong bowler could lob a five pin ball almost the entire length of the alley, it was on the pins before you heard it coming. The trick to keep from getting hit was to be out of the alley pit within one or two seconds after releasing the pin foot lever, sometimes you got hit anyway.

Some kids needed stitches, some broken bones set and plastered, either way, it was a very rare occurrence. We valued the after school job, and were glad we had it.

Oh look, I'm still here, amazing.


John
 
Last edited:
John Baker said:
Some kids needed stitches, some broken bones set and plastered, either way, it was a very rare occurrence. We valued the after school job, and were glad we had it.
John
Click to expand...

One would think, then, that pin boys would have invented the automatic pinsetter. But it was a combination of engineers and machinists.
 
(a) Prohibition. - No pilot in command of an aircraft may allow
an individual who does not hold -
(1) a valid private pilots certificate issued by the
Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration under part
61 of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations; and
(2) the appropriate medical certificate issued by the
Administrator under part 67 of such title,
to manipulate the controls of an aircraft if the pilot knows or
should have known that the individual is attempting to set a record
or engage in an aeronautical competition or aeronautical feat, as
defined by the Administrator.

What is an aeronautical feat?

How much risk is there with the proposed flight? Is a nine year old kid capable of assessing the risk. Is it possible that the child's decision is unduly influenced by the parents. I doubt that this kid can give informed consent to perform this flight.
 
SkyHog said:
I'm confused...where's the danger? Flying ain't hard, and I think the age limits for pilots is overly restrictive anyway.
Click to expand...

Agreed
John Baker said:
There is absolutely no reason a nine year old should not be able to pilot a balloon, other than the fact that our nations nine year olds have been shielded from taking on any personal responsibility whatsoever. They are coddled and protected most all of their childhood and young adult years.

Myself, I'm 100% for such great adventures, it's what kids should be doing, having adventures, and taking chances. It's a shame American kids are deprived of that.

John
Click to expand...
AGREED

Ron Levy said:
All in all, I think it's a dumb stunt which suggests the parent's haven't the judgement they should in order to hold FAA pilot certificates. When the kid's 14, he can solo legally.
Click to expand...

Dude, lighten up. Age doesn't determine safety. The parents are more experienced than anyone on this board is anywhere close to with balloons, if they think its safe for him to fly then I'd trust their judgement.
 
Gary F said:
(a) Prohibition. - No pilot in command of an aircraft may allow
an individual who does not hold -
(1) a valid private pilots certificate issued by the
Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration under part
61 of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations; and
(2) the appropriate medical certificate issued by the
Administrator under part 67 of such title,
to manipulate the controls of an aircraft if the pilot knows or
should have known that the individual is attempting to set a record
or engage in an aeronautical competition or aeronautical feat, as
defined by the Administrator.

What is an aeronautical feat?

How much risk is there with the proposed flight? Is a nine year old kid capable of assessing the risk. Is it possible that the child's decision is unduly influenced by the parents. I doubt that this kid can give informed consent to perform this flight.
Click to expand...

Yes, a 9 year old can accurately asses risk on something like this. 9 year olds are out there racing and competing in all sorts of machines under all sorts of conditions. You are presupposing that the parents are putting this on the kid, but I doubt that's the situation. The kid has grown up in this environment, he's had a lot of training by osmosis if nothing else. I look at my past and I see a kid you may as well not say "no" to, just help keep him from killing himself.
 
Henning said:
Yes, a 9 year old can accurately asses risk on something like this. 9 year olds are out there racing and competing in all sorts of machines under all sorts of conditions. You are presupposing that the parents are putting this on the kid, but I doubt that's the situation. The kid has grown up in this environment, he's had a lot of training by osmosis if nothing else. I look at my past and I see a kid you may as well not say "no" to, just help keep him from killing himself.
Click to expand...
I don't know anything about nine-year-olds but it's not the kid's age or the activity that strike me wrong. I'm not a big fan of attention-hounds, especially when it involves parents trying to get attention for their kids.
 
Everskyward said:
I don't know anything about nine-year-olds but it's not the kid's age or the activity that strike me wrong. I'm not a big fan of attention-hounds, especially when it involves parents trying to get attention for their kids.
Click to expand...

I'd have to agree with this. If the kid and his parents can do it safely, then more power to them. However, I am suspicious about their motive for doing this in the first place.
 
Henning said:
Yes, a 9 year old can accurately asses risk on something like this. 9 year olds are out there racing and competing in all sorts of machines under all sorts of conditions. You are presupposing that the parents are putting this on the kid, but I doubt that's the situation. The kid has grown up in this environment, he's had a lot of training by osmosis if nothing else. I look at my past and I see a kid you may as well not say "no" to, just help keep him from killing himself.
Click to expand...
You have a point. We are overprotecting the kids.
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/loca...gerous-in-New-Summer-Camp-Regs-120195644.html

I am still unconvinced that piloting any aircraft by a 9 year old is reasonable but I do not understand the level of risk. Is it possible that other kids with less training and supervision will be piloting ultralight balloons?
 
gismo said:
As far as I can tell the CPSA only prohibits a licensed pilot in command from letting an unlicensed individual "manipulate the controls" of an aircraft if the PIC knows or shoud know that the unlicensed individual is attempting to set a record etc.
Click to expand...
The CPSA does not limit its scope to licensed pilots.

In this case, who would be that PIC?
Click to expand...
As I said, the 9-y/o kid, which is why I also said the remedy in the Act would be impossible to apply.

Also, I don't see anything in part 103 that sets age limits for ultralight pilots
Click to expand...
Neither do I, but that's irrelevant to the matter at hand. The Act addresses anyone regardless of age who holds less than a PP and a valid medical. Guess that means Sport Pilots can't go for records or "feats," either.

and it wouldn't surprise me to learn that several sub 14 year old individuals have taken flight in some sort of ultralight.
Click to expand...
Nor would it surprise me, and there would be nothing illegal about it if it were not an attempt to set a record, which this one is.

Finally, if the CPSA applies to a 9 year old boy soloing an ultralight balloon, it must also prohibit any unlicensed pilot from flying solo in an ultralight if a record of any sort is being attempted since there's no reference to age in the CPSA that I can see other than the title of the act.
Click to expand...
I guess it does. Interesting unintended consequence. But as I said, since the only penalty in the law is revocation of all airman certificates, it's sort of toothless in that regard.
 
Last edited:
Henning said:
The way I read it is the Act does not come into effect unless there is an intent to set a record.
Click to expand...
Which, per the news article, there is, although the Act also prohibits pilots from allowing unlicensed pilots to attempt "feats."
 
Last edited:
Does anyone have the final wording of the CPSA? I can't find the final law anywhere...
 
SkyHog said:
Does anyone have the final wording of the CPSA? I can't find the final law anywhere...
Click to expand...
Here it is, from the US Government Printing Office...
TITLE VI—CHILD PILOT SAFETY
SEC. 601. SHORT TITLE.
This title may be cited as the ‘‘Child Pilot Safety Act’’.
SEC. 602. CHILD PILOT SAFETY.​

(a) MANIPULATION OF FLIGHT CONTROLS.—


(1) IN GENERAL.—Chapter 447 is amended by adding at

the end the following:​



‘‘§ 44724. Manipulation of flight controls

‘‘(a) PROHIBITION.—No pilot in command of an aircraft may​





allow an individual who does not hold—

‘‘(1) a valid private pilots certificate issued by the Administrator

of the Federal Aviation Administration under part 61
of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations; and
‘‘(2) the appropriate medical certificate issued by the
Administrator under part 67 of such title,
to manipulate the controls of an aircraft if the pilot knows or
should have known that the individual is attempting to set a
record or engage in an aeronautical competition or aeronautical
feat, as defined by the Administrator.
‘‘(b) R​
​

EVOCATION OF AIRMEN CERTIFICATES.—The Administrator​


​



shall issue an order revoking a certificate issued to an airman​



under section 44703 of this title if the Administrator finds that

while acting as a pilot in command of an aircraft, the airman
has permitted another individual to manipulate the controls of
the aircraft in violation of subsection (a).
‘‘(c) P​

ILOT IN COMMAND DEFINED.—In this section, the term​


​



‘pilot in command’ has the meaning given such term by section​



1.1 of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations.’’.

(2) C​
​

ONFORMING AMENDMENT.—The table of sections at​


​



the beginning of such chapter is amended by adding at the​



end the following:


​


‘‘44724. Manipulation of flight controls.’’.

(b) CHILDREN FLYING AIRCRAFT.—​


​





(1) STUDY.—The Administrator of the Federal Aviation​



Administration shall conduct a study of the impacts of children​



flying aircraft.

(2) C​
​

ONSIDERATIONS.—In conducting the study, the​


​



Administrator shall consider the effects of imposing any restrictions​



on children flying aircraft on safety and on the future

of general aviation in the United States.
(3) R​
​

EPORT.—Not later than 6 months after the date of​


​



the enactment of this Act, the Administrator shall issue a​



report containing the results of the study, together with recommendations

on—
(A) whether the restrictions established by the amendment
made by subsection (a)(1) should be modified or
repealed; and
(B ) whether certain individuals or groups should be
exempt from any age, altitude, or other restrictions that
the Administrator may impose by regulation.
(4) R​
​

EGULATIONS.—As a result of the findings of the study,​


​



the Administrator may issue regulations imposing age, altitude,
or other restrictions on children flying aircraft.​

​
Click to expand...




Sorry for the disjointedness -- something about the embedded text is lousing it up.
​
 
Last edited:
Bah, humbug. Here's my kid after his first glider solo. :goofy:
 

Attachments

  • Lane at Chicago Glider Club.jpg
    Lane at Chicago Glider Club.jpg
    434 KB · Views: 25
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top