91.207

Tom-D

Tom-D

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Tom-D
Para (3)
Aircraft while engaged in training operations conducted entirely within a 50-nautical mile radius of the airport from which such local flight operations began;

Does this include a single pilot flying for currency? ( getting the three in 90 days)

going to lunch, simply logging time?

Doing the IFR currency requirements?

no CFI on board during any of the above.
 
Tom-D said:
Para (3)
Aircraft while engaged in training operations conducted entirely within a 50-nautical mile radius of the airport from which such local flight operations began;

Does this include a single pilot flying for currency? ( getting the three in 90 days)

going to lunch, simply logging time?

Doing the IFR currency requirements?

no CFI on board during any of the above.
Click to expand...

You can take all the extra seats out. :D
 
Ron Levy said:
By definition, if there is no instructor, there is no training.
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how do you explain a solo student in a fleet aircraft not equipped with an ELT, doing landing practice?
 
You contend in order to comply with the statement you'd be required to have a CFI on board.

I see it happening too often to agree with out a reference.
 
Tom-D said:
You contend in order to comply with the statement you'd be required to have a CFI on board.

I see it happening too often to agree with out a reference.
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Here are the relevent regs:
Sec. 91.207

Emergency locator transmitters.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (e) and (f) of this section, no person may operate a U.S.-registered civil airplane unless--
(1) There is attached to the airplane an approved automatic type emergency locator transmitter that is in operable condition...
(d) Each emergency locator transmitter required by paragraph (a) of this section must be inspected within 12 calendar months after the last inspection for--
...
(e) Notwithstanding paragraph (a) of this section, a person may--
(3) Aircraft while engaged in training operations conducted entirely within a 50-nautical mile radius of the airport from which such local flight operations began;
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14 CFR 61.1 said:
(7) Flight training means that training, other than ground training, received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft.
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If you can show me an authorized interpretation of 91.207(e)(3) which says "training" in that context includes flights without instructor aboard, I'll be happy to read it.

And the fact that something happens a lot is not to me an indication that it is legal. I can cite too many examples to the contrary.
 
Ron Levy said:
Here are the relevent regs:
Click to expand...
FAR 61 is all about issuing certificates:

(a) This part prescribes:
(1) The requirements for issuing pilot, flight instructor, and ground instructor certificates and ratings; the conditions under which those certificates and ratings are necessary; and the privileges and limitations of those certificates and ratings.

FAR 61 contains the statement:
(3) The requirements for issuing pilot, flight instructor, and ground instructor certificates and ratings for persons who have taken courses approved by the Administrator under other parts of this chapter.
(b) For the purpose of this part:


then gives

(19) Training time means training received—

(i) In flight from an authorized instructor;

(ii) On the ground from an authorized instructor; or

(iii) In a flight simulator or flight training device from an authorized instructor.

So now the question becomes, does definition given in 61 apply to any other FAR such as 91.207.

lacking a definition given in FAR 1.1 I believe the term "Training Operation" is open to interpretation.
 
Tom-D said:
FAR 61 is all about issuing certificates:

(a) This part prescribes:
(1) The requirements for issuing pilot, flight instructor, and ground instructor certificates and ratings; the conditions under which those certificates and ratings are necessary; and the privileges and limitations of those certificates and ratings.

FAR 61 contains the statement:
(3) The requirements for issuing pilot, flight instructor, and ground instructor certificates and ratings for persons who have taken courses approved by the Administrator under other parts of this chapter.
(b) For the purpose of this part:


then gives

(19) Training time means training received—

(i) In flight from an authorized instructor;

(ii) On the ground from an authorized instructor; or

(iii) In a flight simulator or flight training device from an authorized instructor.

So now the question becomes, does definition given in 61 apply to any other FAR such as 91.207.

lacking a definition given in FAR 1.1 I believe the term "Training Operation" is open to interpretation.
Click to expand...

Good point.
 
John Collins said:
Good point.
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It is a good point. Part 61 definitions are supposed to stay with Part 61 but, language (even regulatory) being what it is, there are conceptional cross-overs (or incorporation by at least an implied reference). Without Part 61 definitions you would have no basis for understanding something in another part.

So, how do you count cross country time for the purpose of meeting the Part 135 requirements in 135.243?

Guess you could:
  • just make 'em up. Maybe it means that you have to cross the whole country from sea to shining sea.
  • Use Webster's definitions, some of which sound like you have to race o the ground and go across fields rather than urban areas
  • use the ones that the FAA has made available in Part 61 for figuring out certificates, ratings and pilot qualifications
 
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I really don't know the answer to this, I was hoping for a reference from those in the know.

I wonder why the FAA would put this statement in the reg if they didn't mean it?

(b) For the purpose of this part:
 
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Tom-D said:
I really don't know the answer to this, I was hoping for a reference from those in the know.

I wonder why the FAA would put this statement in the reg if they didn't mean it?

(b) For the purpose of this part:
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Common boilerplate when you're creating definitions. The mistake is thinking it means:

"(b) For the purpose of this part and nothing else, ever:"
 
I have a thread running on the EAA forums also, and this was posted by Marty Mayes .

Due to a lack of enforcement cases to establish legal precedence, whether or not a flight is engaged in training operations under the rule would likely be determined on a case by case basis. However, the FAA Chief Counsel wrote an opinion on 5-6-81 for an operator and that opinion states 'if a tow plane is used to tow a glider to altitude for release then returns to the same airport as he departed, that tow plane is engaged in a "training operation" within the meaning of the reg' and not required to have an ELT. So having an authorized instructor on board is not a silver bullet qualifier.
 
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How does towing a glider constitute training, unless the glider flight was for the purpose of training? :nono:
 
It's all training, if it really is.

Basic private pilot certification language, Part 61.109(a) "..a person who applies for a PP cert must log at least 40 hours flight training time which must include at least 20 training hours with an instructor and at least 10 hours solo flight training.."

There are 2 many references to "training" throughout the regs to limit 91.207 to dual only flights.

Kinda like charter vs. training, "if it walks like a duck..."
 
nosehair said:
It's all training, if it really is.

Basic private pilot certification language, Part 61.109(a) "..a person who applies for a PP cert must log at least 40 hours flight training time which must include at least 20 training hours with an instructor and at least 10 hours solo flight training.."

There are 2 many references to "training" throughout the regs to limit 91.207 to dual only flights.

Kinda like charter vs. training, "if it walks like a duck..."
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I would agree.
 
vintage cessna said:
Really? Then what does "solo flight training" mean in part 61?
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Technically speaking if there is no CFI there is no endorsements. If there is no endorsements there is no solo flight training. :)
 
sdflyer said:
Technically speaking if there is no CFI there is no endorsements. If there is no endorsements there is no solo flight training. :)
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IOWs, when the CFI gives any endorsement to solo, all flights are a training evolution until you get the PPL.
 
This seems to have gotten a bit silly. I submit that *all* the flight time a soloed student logs between his solo and his checkride *ought* to be training. That's the whole point of being a soled student. And it's not a big logical jump to say that any time spent working on currency or advanced ratings is training.
 
Old Geek said:
This seems to have gotten a bit silly. I submit that *all* the flight time a soloed student logs between his solo and his checkride *ought* to be training. That's the whole point of being a soled student. And it's not a big logical jump to say that any time spent working on currency or advanced ratings is training.
Click to expand...

Does the student also log PIC time? What about solo XC, how is that logged?
 
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