80% of Americans...

We've become a society that thinks Food Babe and Dr. Oz are reputable sources of information. Given the choice to watch "Long Island Medium" or "NOVA", I'm pretty sure the former would win by a landslide.

Food Babe and Dr Oz have no competition. Humans by nature are curious and afraid, this goes to the core of our existence. If there is an information vacuum, and only Food Babe and Dr Oz are there filling the void, well what else are people going to form their opinions on?

Had the 'good of mankind' been the primary intent behind the industry, they would have spent the money educating the public.

Instead they basically told people to "**** off, you don't need to know." This is the long term approach for how our society is to be structured. It has been made evident over and over, and the fact that our education system generates more profits than people who can think on their own is another tell of the problem.

They went for the route that makes for the best quarterly bottom line without giving thought to what the 10 year effect would be, and it's costing them dearly.
Intent determines overall result.
 
Like MMGW. For an allegedly open minded scientist you sure are prejudiced in what you choose to believe.

More like who. I believe the climate scientists I know, who are mostly fairly selfless and very intelligent and curious individuals, versus the very well-monied lobby interests that seek to tear them down. I prefer the scientific method, which mostly promotes truth and honesty to corporate policy, which only serves to promote the bottom line.
 
Human to the core, believing what your tribe believes. That is the proper way to do it.
 
Food Babe and Dr Oz have no competition. Humans by nature are curious and afraid, this goes to the core of our existence. If there is an information vacuum, and only Food Babe and Dr Oz are there filling the void, well what else are people going to form their opinions on?

But there is no information vacuum. People simply gravitate to the likes of Food Babe and Dr. Oz because it's easier than taking a course in physics or chemistry.
 
Human to the core, believing what your tribe believes. That is the proper way to do it.

I believe data. Problem is, I cannot be a technical expert in everything. I therefore believe in the process I know and the people I know in the absence of technical understanding. That said, those are two more things than you will ever know. You believe people with strongly vested interests and dubious qualifications.
 
I believe data. Problem is, I cannot be a technical expert in everything. I therefore believe in the process I know and the people I know in the absence of technical understanding. That said, those are two more things than you will ever know. You believe people with strongly vested interests and dubious qualifications.
Your process is corrupt. You believe in falsities and lies. And worse perpetrate them. You don't think the strongly vested interests have found their way into the academy? Of course they have, where else could you find gobs of semi intelligent people willing to do your bidding for peanuts?:lol:
 
Your process is corrupt. You believe in falsities and lies. And worse perpetrate them. You don't think the strongly vested interests have found their way into the academy? Of course they have, where else could you find gobs of semi intelligent people willing to do your bidding for peanuts?:lol:

I doubt you know even a single scientist. Indeed, I suspect the closest you've ever come to having a meaningful conversation with a scientist is this internet conversation right here.
 
I doubt you know even a single scientist. Indeed, I suspect the closest you've ever come to having a meaningful conversation with a scientist is this internet conversation right here.
beenz Edumucated in bester schools then u. pinheads love credentialism and i gots da credits, man. somedaz gonna return thoze library bookz and pick up my degree. loollzlooolzzlloooolllz
 
But there is no information vacuum. People simply gravitate to the likes of Food Babe and Dr. Oz because it's easier than taking a course in physics or chemistry.

There most definitely is an information vacuum when all the information is bottled in academia where they cordon themselves off as another "them" that replies "You don't understand" while bringing forth no understanding. So now you have academia sponsored by industry both telling 'the rabble' **** off, you're not worth our time. Why do you think academia suffers such a credibility issue with average people?

We don't need college level programs, we need to revive 'School House Rock' type programs to begin the educating process.
 
There most definitely is an information vacuum when all the information is bottled in academia where they cordon themselves off

Come on, you're f***ing with me, right? We live in the age that has the most unfettered exchange of information and access to scholarship in the history of the planet. There is no information vacuum.

Why do you think academia suffers such a credibility issue with average people?

I'm not sure that it does. Define "average people". If that describes a subset of the population that is largely uneducated beyond a high school level, then it's probably an issue of they don't know what they don't know. And I understand that that rational can apply to any group of people. But if that's your definition of average, their educational benchmark is probably on the low side.

Someone who barely passed high school algebra wouldn't have a worthwhile opinion of calculus.
 
We don't need college level programs, we need to revive 'School House Rock' type programs to begin the educating process.

Why? Kids are glued to their XBoxes from age 2.
 
Come on, you're f***ing with me, right? We live in the age that has the most unfettered exchange of information and access to scholarship in the history of the planet. There is no information vacuum.



I'm not sure that it does. Define "average people". If that describes a subset of the population that is largely uneducated beyond a high school level, then it's probably an issue of they don't know what they don't know. And I understand that that rational can apply to any group of people. But if that's your definition of average, their educational benchmark is probably on the low side.

Someone who barely passed high school algebra wouldn't have a worthwhile opinion of calculus.

Scholarship is not how the average public gets educated!!! You have to put it on memes! Seriously, we need School House Rock; Conjunction Junction, and I'm Just a Bill, level stuff. By restricting the level of education to academia level stuff, you fail to educate 80% of the people.

The primary purpose of education in the matter is to gain trust. If you provide what people feel is a heartfelt effort to educate them, and they get confused, at that point they are much more likely to decide to just trust you. Without the effort though, that person is more likely to mistrust you.

If you don't make your intent clear and believable, the default in human nature is to mistrust.
 
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Scholarship is not how the average public gets educated!!!

That's arguable. But even without formal instruction just about everything known is out there for anyone. All it takes is some initiative and curiosity. The problem is those who have no knowledge of an issue but think they can effectively argue with those who do.

There are a very few subjects that I feel knowledgeable enough in to have a valid opinion. I wouldn't get into an argument about flying large jets with an airline captain. I wouldn't get into an argument about differential equations with my company's programmer (he has two masters, one in math and one in physics). I wouldn't get into an argument about speciation with Steingar. I wouldn't get into an argument about magnetos with my A&P. But if I want to learn something about any of those, given enough time, I could easily find the information and study it.

Seriously, we need School House Rock; Conjunction Junction, and I'm Just a Bill, level stuff. By restricting the level of education to academia level stuff, you fail to educate 80% of the people.

Sorry, I plead ignorance here. I'm Just a Bill?? Conjunction Junction? I'm guessing these are some sort of teaching programs?
 
That's arguable. But even without formal instruction just about everything known is out there for anyone. All it takes is some initiative and curiosity. The problem is those who have no knowledge of an issue but think they can effectively argue with those who do.

There are a very few subjects that I feel knowledgeable enough in to have a valid opinion. I wouldn't get into an argument about flying large jets with an airline captain. I wouldn't get into an argument about differential equations with my company's programmer (he has two masters, one in math and one in physics). I wouldn't get into an argument about speciation with Steingar. I wouldn't get into an argument about magnetos with my A&P. But if I want to learn something about any of those, given enough time, I could easily find the information and study it.



Sorry, I plead ignorance here. I'm Just a Bill?? Conjunction Junction? I'm guessing these are some sort of teaching programs?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FFroMQlKiag

You can't expect people to work for information, you have to turn it into entertainment.
 
You can't expect people to work for information, you have to turn it into entertainment.

That's right. As a society we've pretty much lowered the bar on everything. We can't seem to expect people to work for much of anything anymore.

If people can't be expected to learn, I can't be expected to believe them when they make arguments based on ignorance.
 
That's arguable. But even without formal instruction just about everything known is out there for anyone. All it takes is some initiative and curiosity. The problem is those who have no knowledge of an issue but think they can effectively argue with those who do.

There are a very few subjects that I feel knowledgeable enough in to have a valid opinion. I wouldn't get into an argument about flying large jets with an airline captain. I wouldn't get into an argument about differential equations with my company's programmer (he has two masters, one in math and one in physics). I wouldn't get into an argument about speciation with Steingar. I wouldn't get into an argument about magnetos with my A&P. But if I want to learn something about any of those, given enough time, I could easily find the information and study it.



Sorry, I plead ignorance here. I'm Just a Bill?? Conjunction Junction? I'm guessing these are some sort of teaching programs?

Those items are from a series of TV spots run on Saturday mornings amongst the cartoons in the 70's(? Could be the 60's. I remember both, but not as well as I used to.) They were education spots from the "Schoolhouse Rock" series. They covered english grammar, some basic civics, etc. Commercial length and targeted to those watching the cartoons. Here's I'm Just a Bill (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyeJ55o3El0&spfreload=10). Search for Schoolhouse Rock on youtube.

break.

Yes, most everything you could possibly want to know is available, but there is a HUGE, and I do mean HUGE, noise to signal ratio. The barrier to publication went to nearly 0 on the internet and the rational ability to perceive and discriminate among 1) real data, 2) vested interest, 3) unconscious bias is very low. I think general cynicism is actually a defense against so much bad information. Not a good one, but better than swallowing everything.

And bad information comes from both intentional and unintentional sources.

Advertising? Definitely vested interest and subject to the ethics of the company, producer, advertising agency, etc.

News? Subject to both conscious ("Let's sensationalize this to get the viewers at 11!") and unconscious ("We run this story, it more important than that story.") bias. In addition, most of the journalists, even with the best intentions, are largely ignorant of the subjects under discussion. Seen any good aviation stories lately?

And most of us do not either have access to, or understanding of the in depth papers published on scientific subjects. I cringe at what I read in the headline obsessed internet news world about the latest scientific study to catch somebody's eye: "Chocolate is Better for You than Broccoli". Read the article and you might find out that chocolate has more zinc than broccoli which helps with some particular health issue. Or you may not unless you track down the study, pay for access because the journal actually has to pay it's bills somehow, and then read and digest the real paper (which hopefully has enough of the data in it to be able to judge the methodology).

Scientists (as any other largish group of people) have those with good ethics, and not so good. As well as those with talent & skill, and those who are not so much. Kind of like pilots. And journalists. And engineers. And wait staff. And etc.

Most of the information we have access to is garbage. And unless it's a field we know something about, we have very little way to sift the wheat from the chaff. That's what lowering the barrier to entry has done to "publishing".

So while you're statement that there is more information available to people today is true, it is also true that it is buried in more trash than ever before as well. And in most areas, we are ill equipped to tell the difference.

John
 
Yes, most everything you could possibly want to know is available, but there is a HUGE, and I do mean HUGE, noise to signal ratio. The barrier to publication went to nearly 0 on the internet and the rational ability to perceive and discriminate among 1) real data, 2) vested interest, 3) unconscious bias is very low. ... So while you're statement that there is more information available to people today is true, it is also true that it is buried in more trash than ever before as well. And in most areas, we are ill equipped to tell the difference.

Well said and I cannot argue with any of that.
 
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FFroMQlKiag

You can't expect people to work for information, you have to turn it into entertainment.
But it's easy to simplify how a bill becomes a law. It's harder when both sides bring bring a combination of science and opinion to an issue.

As far as your comments about how Monsanto is not trying to influence public opinion, look at this.

http://monsantoblog.com/2014/12/09/the-npriq2us-debate-on-gmos/

Intelligence Squared is a podcast. I listen to it at times at the suggestion of JeffDG.

IQ2US is a non-partisan, nonprofit organization founded in 2006 to restore civility, reasoned analysis and constructive public discourse to today’s often biased media landscape. IQ2US reaches millions through radio, television, live streaming, podcasts and interactive digital content. It’s one of the top 25 most popular podcasts on iTunes, and has won numerous prestigious awards. With close to 100 debates, IQ2US has encouraged the public to “think twice” on a wide range of provocative topics. The debate will be broadcast by National Public Radio in the near future.

On Dec. 3, the discussion on GMOS was civil and constructive, radically different than what usually occurs on social media. It was a neutral forum, and science won hands down. A poll before the debate had 32 percent in favor of GMOS, 30 against and 38 percent undecided. After the debate, it was 60 percent in favor of GMOs, 31 against, and 9 undecided.
I thought the guy from Monsanto did a very good job at presenting his case. There will be some who say the outcome of the debate has more to do with the skill of the participants and the composition of the audience but it's still interesting to hear the different sides presented in a civil manner and not too far over the heads of people with little scientific background.
 
That's right. As a society we've pretty much lowered the bar on everything. We can't seem to expect people to work for much of anything anymore.

If people can't be expected to learn, I can't be expected to believe them when they make arguments based on ignorance.

Our leadership chose that path because it's what we asked for. People don't want to have to think, it's work. Whether you believe their arguments is irrelevant, the loss is incurred at the point the argument exists. Always remember this, the stupid side of an argument in society almost always wins.
 
But it's easy to simplify how a bill becomes a law. It's harder when both sides bring bring a combination of science and opinion to an issue.

As far as your comments about how Monsanto is not trying to influence public opinion, look at this.

http://monsantoblog.com/2014/12/09/the-npriq2us-debate-on-gmos/

Intelligence Squared is a podcast. I listen to it at times at the suggestion of JeffDG.

I thought the guy from Monsanto did a very good job at presenting his case. There will be some who say the outcome of the debate has more to do with the skill of the participants and the composition of the audience but it's still interesting to hear the different sides presented in a civil manner and not too far over the heads of people with little scientific background.

Yes, it is more difficult, the problem is the basic knowledge to understand is missing from our general society. We need a lot of remedial stuff, and there is nothing that can be taught that can't be taught in a cartoon.
 
"Vote for me and you won't need to think, we'll take care of that for you." We've had so many generations of it now the problems are really settling in to roost.
 
It hinders their effort in those regards though. It makes no sense, they waste more time, money, and energy, on the present course, plus their seed product is being banned continent wide around the world.


That was my point. It doesn't. Seen anyone not buying GMO food lately? Since we've already pointed out there's no such thing.
 
That was my point. It doesn't. Seen anyone not buying GMO food lately? Since we've already pointed out there's no such thing.

Yes! There are countries like Bulgaria that are banning the planting over fear, and it's a growing movement. Europe has stringent and transparent certification for seed, and still there is a growing social movement to ban it altogether. We are not near the end of the conflict, we are just at the beginning. It will never end until we put in the effort to resolve the conflict.
 
Yes! There are countries like Bulgaria that are banning the planting over fear, and it's a growing movement. Europe has stringent and transparent certification for seed, and still there is a growing social movement to ban it altogether. We are not near the end of the conflict, we are just at the beginning. It will never end until we put in the effort to resolve the conflict.

All crops and livestock are genetically modified. Have been for a millenia.
 
All crops and livestock are genetically modified. Have been for a millenia.
That depends how you define "genetically modified". Here's an explanation of what they mean.

The term genetically modified (GM), as it is commonly used, refers to the transfer of genes between organisms using a series of laboratory techniques for cloning genes, splicing DNA segments together, and inserting genes into cells. Collectively, these techniques are known as recombinant DNA technology. Other terms used for GM plants or foods derived from them are genetically modified organism (GMO), genetically engineered (GE), bioengineered, and transgenic. ‘Genetically modified’ is an imprecise term and a potentially confusing one, in that virtually everything we eat has been modified genetically through domestication from wild species and many generations of selection by humans for desirable traits. The term is used here because it is the one most widely used to indicate the use of recombinant DNA technology. According to USDA standards for organic agriculture, seeds or other substances derived through GM technology are not allowed in organic production.

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/crops/00710.html
 
All crops and livestock are genetically modified. Have been for a millenia.

Not the same, and using it in the argument is the same as arguing guns aren't designed for killing. We have not been removing select genes from a cell with viruses, then replacing those genes from another organism not even of the same biological kingdom. Up until very recently we have been breeding hybrid organisms through breeding functions available in nature at the organism level, not working within mitochondria.
 
Excluding the selective breeding, etc from the definition of GM is like saying a person conceived by in virto fertilization is not a real person.
 
Only busting a but in hot chicks GM the human race. For the better, say no to fuglies.
 
Crop breeding still genetically modifies the organism.

It's far less dangerous because it's more precise.
But when you say the process we are talking about has been done for millennia that is not true. Maybe they should have used the more correct term "recombinant DNA technology" but that would have probably scared people more. :D
 
But when you say the process we are talking about has been done for millennia that is not true. Maybe they should have used the more correct term "recombinant DNA technology" but that would have probably scared people more. :D

But that's not what people are screaming about.

They want "Genetically Modified" foods to be labelled. The point is, that's EVERYTHING.

So, yeah, if they demand GMOs be labelled, then everything should have a GMO label on it. Every single thing that comes from a living thing is GMO,

I also thing that "Certified Organic" food should be required to be labelled as "Grown in Pig ****" because it is.
 
But that's not what people are screaming about.

They want "Genetically Modified" foods to be labelled. The point is, that's EVERYTHING.

So, yeah, if they demand GMOs be labelled, then everything should have a GMO label on it. Every single thing that comes from a living thing is GMO,

I also thing that "Certified Organic" food should be required to be labelled as "Grown in Pig ****" because it is.

No, you are projecting your perception, but that is not what is being asked for. You are deciding to use an idiotic argument by using a different definition of GMO than is being used by the principals in the argument.
 
No, you are projecting your perception, but that is not what is being asked for. You are deciding to use an idiotic argument by using a different definition of GMO than is being used by the principals in the argument.

I'm using an accurate definition, not one based on spin.
 
I'm using an accurate definition, not one based on spin.

You are using one that is not being used in the argument, so is completely irrelevant to the argument.

What you are is the 'Food Babe' of the pro GMO side.
 
You are using one that is not being used in the argument, so is completely irrelevant to the argument.

What you are is the 'Food Babe' of the pro GMO side.

Then maybe the people that are initiating the argument should use a more exacting term. Then again they are in the 80%
 
But that's not what people are screaming about.

They want "Genetically Modified" foods to be labelled. The point is, that's EVERYTHING.

So, yeah, if they demand GMOs be labelled, then everything should have a GMO label on it. Every single thing that comes from a living thing is GMO,
You are using your own definition of "genetically modified". If you look at the link I quoted a few posts earlier, it's a misleading term for the process in question.
 
Then maybe the people that are initiating the argument should use a more exacting term. Then again they are in the 80%
I agree that the term is misleading but both sides are using it, not just the people you call the 80%.
 
Then maybe the people that are initiating the argument should use a more exacting term. Then again they are in the 80%

Yes, they should, but that is not in the agenda of leadership. You can't blame the 80%, it's the leadership that is failing.
 
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