747 cargo down in Afghanistan

Velocity173 said:
Whoa now! Easy does it. A Navy guy could have said the same thing.
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Yes, but the likelihood is much less.

I've spent time on Army bases.....I guess I'm a bit pessimistic about a group that makes it mandatory to wear reflective belts within a compound that prohibits vehicles.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I seriously doubt weather as well. Whatever happened to that airplane happened right at or immediately after rotation - notice they never brought the gear up - it was down the entire takeoff/accident sequence. They were fighting for everything they were worth right from liftoff.
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Maybe they rushed loading to try and beat weather?

Reaching there I know!
 
Skylane81E said:
Maybe they rushed loading to try and beat weather?

Reaching there I know!
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Could be.....apparently that load is something they are doing every day. I heard something along the lines of they are flying 1500 MRAPs out of the 'stan every month now. If someone was trying to rush things and they were becoming complacent with loading/securing, I could see how that might happen.

Either way, I think it will be be pretty obvious when they sift through the wreckage. The tail (at least the vertical and horizontal stabs) is relatively intact so to speak so if there was a flight control issue, they should be able to determine that.
 
As I understand it: The loads are chained to the pallets, the pallets lock to the floor system, and the straps are there just as extra insurance... this picture illustrates what it would have been like in that cargo hold. Note that this picture is illustrative ONLY and is not related to the crashed plane or load in any way.

DSC_0091_zps56172ba8.jpeg
 
Skylane81E said:
Maybe, looks like they were on their way to pulling out.


Thing is if the load stayed aft I doubt they would have been able to maintain control, same outcome if it shifted back forward too far.
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True. Also, if the load was on wheels or rollers and it came loose, it would probably keep rolling back and forth as they tried to recover; they might go from stalled to being unable to get the nose back up. Maybe steep banking might "derail" the stuff and stop it from rolling, but if you didn't time it perfectly... it would be nearly impossible, even from a normal cruising altitude, I think.
Just a very bad deal. I wouldn't wish that on any pilot. :nonod:
 
Interesting statement released by National. Apparently all they did at Bagram was take on fuel. Cargo was preloaded and made the flight safely to Bagram:
ORLANDO, Fla., May 1, 2013 /PRNewswire/ -- National Air Cargo will not speculate as to the cause of the accident involving National Flight NCR102. With our full cooperation, an investigation by appropriate authorities is under way, and we encourage everyone to join us in respecting that process and allowing it to take its appropriate course.

Here are some facts regarding the aircraft and its movements prior to the accident:
  • National Flight NCR102 was en route to Dubai from Camp Bastian and had stopped to refuel at Bagram Air Base.
  • The cargo contained within the aircraft was properly loaded and secured, and had passed all necessary inspections prior to departing Camp Bastian.
  • The aircraft landed safely and uneventfully in Bagram.
  • No additional cargo or personnel was added during the stop in Bagram, and the aircraft's cargo was again inspected prior to departure.
Please visit www.nationalaircargo.com for updates regarding this tragic accident. Media inquiries can be directed to publicrelations@nationalairlines.aero.
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http://finance.yahoo.com/news/statement-national-air-cargo-005100280.html
 
Seems to put improper loading (as far as planned CG) to rest and give greater weight to shifting load...


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The pilot in me watched and thought about how airplanes behave like airplanes... as you watch the beginnings of a stall and the incipient spin, and imagine the control inputs the flight crew was probably doing to try to keep the tail behind the wing... and then lost their battle in the opposite direction when airspeed and time ran out.

They continued to fight it, and even managed to raise the nose before impact, probably hoping to get the cockpit level... if they'd have had (much) more altitude and therefore time... maybe it'd be flyable with full nose down trim and elevator inputs...

All depends on what the failure really was. They flew it until it couldn't be flown anymore, judging by the pitch and yaw battle going on there.

Sigh... as someone said, from a human perspective... awful to see.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Curiouser and Curiouser.
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Although load shift is easy to believe. Is it just possible that there is a reason that PEDs should not be used below 10,000 feet and during critical phases of flight?

Hard to watch. I've seen one other large airplane crash this difficult to see. B52
 
Stupid questions.

What is a PED, and what is the difference between improper and shifting?
 
Personal Electronic Device.
I'm only guessing:
load shift = something came loose and changed the CG
improper = would be loaded from the getgo outside the envelope

The reports I've read say the load was onboard and secure when they landed and nothing was added except fuel.
 
ChrisK said:
Stupid questions.

What is a PED, and what is the difference between improper and shifting?
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He's referring to portable/personal electronic devices.

Frankly I have difficulty seeing that being a factor, as select PED's are certified for use during those phases to display approach plates and information.
 
Sleepingsquirrel said:
Personal Electronic Device.
I'm only guessing:
load shift = something came loose and changed the CG
improper = would be loaded from the getgo outside the envelope

The reports I've read say the load was onboard and secure when they landed and nothing was added except fuel.
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Thanks. Now I feel silly :)
 
Greg Bockelman said:
That is assuming facts not even remotely in evidence. At any rate, it is highly unlikely in this case.
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Agreed...I've heard of PEDs effecting avionics, but this would be a real stretch. It is not even like it was a fly-by-wire Airbus. This was an older, former Air France 747. Be mighty hard to bring down with a PED.
 
OK , I bow to your superior knowledge of what caused this accident. Just send your post to the NTSB and put this all to rest.
 
Sleepingsquirrel said:
Not as silly as I feel for asking the question!:nono::nono::nono:
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For what it is worth, I didn't mean to make you feel silly. It is just that a PED won't affect an airplane like that. At least not that airplane. It isn't that automated. About all it would do is interfere with the nav aid signal.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
For what it is worth, I didn't mean to make you feel silly. It is just that a PED won't affect an airplane like that. At least not that airplane. It isn't that automated. About all it would do is interfere with the nav aid signal.
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..... or a flight instrument ?
 
Hopefully the FDR and the CVR are intact.....

Just for conversation......

Suppose someone boarded the plane during the fuel stop and altered the load and its hold downs... The crew reboards and since it flew in OK the loadmaster didn't do a preflight on the load..... Stranger things have happened over in the sand box...:eek::yes:
 
How good is security in a situation like this? Could someone gain access to the cargo bay and loosen, partially cut, or remove restraints?
 
kyleb said:
How good is security in a situation like this? Could someone gain access to the cargo bay and loosen, partially cut, or remove restraints?
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As secure as any major airport in America. Air Force guards the ramp and you're required to have a flight line badge for access. We used to leave all our flight gear and crew served weapons (M-240) in the aircraft on the ramp. I think odds of someone tampering with the aircraft would be slim. I would hope the load master or captain would have done a security check of the cargo prior to departure.
 
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RV10flyer said:
Interesting company info...

http://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/stories/2008/05/12/story1.html?page=all
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Just the goverments way of negotiating. Pay off an insider for dirt on the company, audit them until the cows come home and then slap them with a 28mil fine on a $400 billing discrepancy. Medicare audit recovery contractors work the same way.

Considering that this shakedown happened in 2008 and National still has the military contracts, their transgressions must not have been significant enough for the goverment to stop doing business with them.
 
docmirror said:
With a serious post crash fire like that, I don't know what the investigators will be able to recover for investigation. I know they are skilled, and will make some progress, but I can't figure how much of anything survived enough to make any arguments based on the post crash site.
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Not exactly. If it was a failure of load restraints the deformation in the attachment points and hooks, as well as any longitudinal structural impact from shifting pallets will be easily discerned. That kind of damage would survive a post crash fire and would be pretty easy to separate form any deformation caused by impact both by physical as well as metallurgical analysis.
 
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