747 cargo down in Afghanistan

Jim Logajan said:
I have no preference to where it is hosted - since it is like watching someone fall from a building to their death, I now prefer not to have seen it at all. Other than morbid curiosity, there was nothing new I learned from it that could help me in the future.

It is the stuff of piloting nightmares.
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Someone on another forum summed it up well- the aviator in me is glad that I watched it. The human in me wishes what I saw could be unseen.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Someone on another forum summed it up well- the aviator in me is glad that I watched it. The human in me wishes what I saw could be unseen.
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Well said. This is one I've actively encouraged my family NOT to watch.

Jim Logajan said:
It is the stuff of piloting nightmares.
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Ever since I started flying, I can count on my subconscious mind to give me 2-3 plane crash nightmares per year. Most of them look exactly like this - I'm watching a plane fly, and then it suddenly stops flying.
 
The video appears to have been taken by security patrolling outside the perimeter fence. He had a dog, had wig wags(both audible) and turned to block the road momentarily. Very hard to watch any aircraft but especially a 747 stall in like that.
 
I checked Google News, FOX and CNN. Local TV stations. No noticeable coverage. NPR had a small blurb. Aviation Week had coverage. What's up with the media blackout, given such dramatic footage? They usually jump all over plane crashes caught on film.
 
One more thought.. The extreme angle of attack is common departure procedure in regions like this due to hostiles in the area. Gotta wonder if an extreme departure climb contributed to the load shifting (failed straps, pins, or otherwise).
 
At 1200' AGL the crew were heard on VHF air-band frequency reporting that some of the load of five heavy military vehicles in the cargo hold had shifted and the aircraft stalled.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
One more thought.. The extreme angle of attack is common departure procedure in regions like this due to hostiles in the area. Gotta wonder if an extreme departure climb contributed to the load shifting (failed straps, pins, or otherwise).
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Besides the 15s and 16s, everyone does normal arrivals and departures there. Low threat around BAF. Of course just a normal takeoff in a 747 is quite steep anyway.
 
"The plane — owned by National Airlines, an Orlando, Florida-based subsidiary of National Air Cargo — was carrying vehicles and other cargo, according to National Air Cargo Vice President Shirley Kaufman. She said those killed were four pilots, two mechanics and a load master, who was responsible for making sure that the weight and balance of the cargo is appropriate. Five of the seven fatalities were from Michigan, said Kaufman."
 
Horrible story and video. I was reading about this in an airline pilot forum and the crew was getting major credit for flying the plane all the way to the end. The pilots on that site who fly the 747 said that the plane recovered from two spins before the end. I'd say that's remarkable airmanship and I take some comfort in that.

Tail winds and clear skies to those lost. You'll be in my thoughts today for sure.
 
jspilot said:
Horrible story and video. I was reading about this in an airline pilot forum and the crew was getting major credit for flying the plane all the way to the end. The pilots on that site who fly the 747 said that the plane recovered from two spins before the end. I'd say that's remarkable airmanship and I take some comfort in that.
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Yeah, this is different from, say, that old Caribou accident where the integrated control locks were left engaged on takeoff. This crew had free controls, from the looks of it, but the CG must have been way aft, because nothing really worked.
It's excruciating watching them almost recover... but a fine effort. R.I.P.

I just hope there's sufficient evidence left for something to be learned (beyond "load must be within envelope and secure"); it may not have been simple loading error, so there may be some easily-overlooked thing or faulty part that could cause this to happen again.

But I doubt they'll find much... :nonod:
 
Fearless Tower said:
Like I posted earlier, he might have been merging the Alaska crash with the Emery DC-8 that everyone thought was a load shift but turned out had a elevator bolt fail.
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He was snarkily pointing out my mistaken aircraft ID of the MD-80 as a DC-8.
 
Prayers go out to the crew and there families..

Does anyone think if they had more altitude they may have pulled it out? It looked to me as if the plane was gaining airspeed and trying to fly just before impact. It may not have mattered with the aft CG anyway?
 
Foxhole said:
Does anyone think if they had more altitude they may have pulled it out? It looked to me as if the plane was gaining airspeed and trying to fly just before impact. It may not have mattered with the aft CG anyway?
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Possibly, but they would have needed a few thousand feet (at least) to do it.

There has been some discussion on the professional forums about intentionally dropping the wing as a method of bringing the nose down when faced with such a unusual attitude in a swept wing jet. I have zero swept wing jet time, so can't comment on the specifics other than to say you need altitude to recover which they really didn't have.

As far as the CG issue, if the rolling stock shifting the load was indeed the cause, then the load would likely have shifted back forward when the nose dropped. That is what happened to the C-2 years ago that had the load shift off the cat. The engine they were carrying shot back toward the tail crushing the loadmaster and then when the airplane stalled and the nose dropped in the spin, the engine then went forward and crushed the pilots.
 
Also decreasing thrust would help bring the nose down, which may be why some thought there was loss of engine power on climb out. With enough altitude, recovery seemed possible.
 
wsuffa said:
The WaPo "weather team" is now professing that weather might have been a contributing factor: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...yed-role-in-horrifying-bagram-airfield-crash/
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I fail to see how weather could cause such a severe nose pitch up. Thunderstorms in the area? Can't see any from the vid. A wind shift wouldn't cause this either.

While BAF has the craziest winds that a pilot could experience, this isn't the time of the year for it. The "120 days of wind" starts in late June and goes until September. During that time there is an almost constant 35-45 kt wind blowing. Strong crosswinds, blowing dust, and turbulence is a daily occurrence. Even then, a steady stream of ops goes on day and night.

"One army spokesman said the crashed occurred due to low altitude after takeoff."
Brilliant observation.
 
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Foxhole said:
Prayers go out to the crew and there families..

Does anyone think if they had more altitude they may have pulled it out? It looked to me as if the plane was gaining airspeed and trying to fly just before impact. It may not have mattered with the aft CG anyway?
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Maybe, looks like they were on their way to pulling out.


Thing is if the load stayed aft I doubt they would have been able to maintain control, same outcome if it shifted back forward too far.
 
Velocity173 said:
I fail to see how weather could cause such a severe nose pitch up. Thunderstorms in the area? Can't see any from the vid. A wind shift wouldn't cause this either.

While BAF has the craziest winds that a pilot could experience, this isn't the time of the year for it. The "120 days of wind" starts in late June and goes until September. During that time there is an almost constant 35-45 kt wind blowing. Strong crosswinds, blowing dust, and turbulence is a daily occurrence. Even then, a steady stream of ops goes on day and night.
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I seriously doubt weather as well. Whatever happened to that airplane happened right at or immediately after rotation - notice they never brought the gear up - it was down the entire takeoff/accident sequence. They were fighting for everything they were worth right from liftoff.
 
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