61.109 (a)(2)(i) One cross-country flight of over 100 nautical miles total distance

[RussR]

We got burned by this one:
1 solo cross country flight of at least 150nm total distance with full stop landings at 3 points and one segment of at least 50nm between T/O and landings

We initially planned a 3 point cross country flight that was 148 nm total distance, figured that was short so we added 1 more airport to make it a 4 point 175 nm total distance flight. The examiner refused to accept it.

As others have said, I can see where if the 3 by themselves didn't meet the distance requirement, then there is a somewhat valid argument that simple adding a fourth doesn't work. I don't really agree that it doesn't meet the intent of the regs, but at least it's a defensible argument.

If it didn't meet the requirement simply because there were 4 airports instead of 3, well that's just dumb. A reasonable DPE would look at that and say you met the requirement when landing at the 3rd airport, the rest was a separate "flight". You could even log it on two lines to have the same apparent effect. But there shouldn't be a need for that - especially as others have pointed out, a strict reading like that requires a distance of exactly 150 nm.

There's an equally silly interpretation available in the instrument rating requirements, for the IFR XC, which requires an approach at each airport and three different kinds of approaches. So from a strict reading, first, if you do 4 approaches it doesn't count. But also, if you don't end the flight at the airport you started from (i.e. don't make it a round-robin flight), that doesn't count because you didn't do an approach at EACH airport, since you didn't do one at the starting airport. Furthermore, if you depart from a field with no instrument approaches, do your 3 approaches at other airports, and then come back, that doesn't count either since you didn't do an approach at your home airport. Obviously all of these situations could be "solved" by different logging machinations, but should you have to? No. There's a difference between a DPE being lax on the rules (or following their own interpretations), and one who is not allowing flights that clearly comply with the intent of the regs and go above and beyond.

 

[Matthew]

Only reason I stopped at 1K4 is I owed someone for a night at Gaston’s (they cancelled, I took the cabin) and dropped em off a check on the way through. Can't remember who it was though.

I needed a stop there because OUN wasn’t 250 NM. It was 248.

 

[Clip4]

Just to make sure I am interpreting correctly…

This would be 100nm round trip or one way? The flight for example is CHA-GKT-CHA. GKT is 95.8nm from CHA, but the round trip total distance covered exceeds 100nm. Good?

I assume without any “straight line” or “from the point of departure” it assumes just a round trip distance flown.

Cross-country time means—

(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (ii) through (vii) of this definition, time acquired during flight—

(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
(B) Conducted in an aircraft;
(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and
(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
(ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements (except for a rotorcraft category rating), for a private pilot certificate (except for a powered parachute category rating), a commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under § 61.101 (c), time acquired during a flight—

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

 

[RyanB]

Cross-country time means—

(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (ii) through (vii) of this definition, time acquired during flight—

(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
(B) Conducted in an aircraft;
(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and
(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
(ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements (except for a rotorcraft category rating), for a private pilot certificate (except for a powered parachute category rating), a commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under § 61.101 (c), time acquired during a flight—

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

Thanks, but I didn’t ask for the definition of cross country time.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Thanks, but I didn’t ask for the definition of cross country time.

But your OP did have an incorrect assumption regarding that definition.

I assume without any “straight line” or “from the point of departure” it assumes just a round trip distance flown.

 

[Pinecone]

Wild interpretation

Think about it, if you allowed any number of stops, you would do it in a bunch of 10 nm flights if the airports were close.

 

[Clip4]

Thanks, but I didn’t ask for the definition of cross country time.

No, but the answer to your question was contained in the definition.

 

[Clip4]

He said it had to be 3 airports, not 4.

I have questions.. If the regulation requires exactly 3 airports. Does the regulation also require the flight to be exactly 150 nm? The reg doesn’t include at least or not less than.

Doesn’t the regulation require more than 1 full stop landing at each of the three points? If they wanted 1 full stop landing at each point, they didn’t write the reg that way. Can you do all the full stop landings you desire?

Also if you did a touch and go’s at a 4th, 5th and 6th airport, where in the regs does it say do you have to log it?

(ii) One solo cross country flight of 150 nautical miles total distance, with full-stop landings at three points, and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations;

 

[TommyG]

Many problems is because people want to do the bare minimum. I send my students on x country of at least 60 to 70 miles away. The long x country we plan for 200 to 250 total. I have them stop and get fuel, so that way there can never be a confusion of full stop vs touch and go.