5 Dead In MO SR-22 Crash

Re: 5 Dead In MO SR-22 Chrash

Wonder what happened.
 
Re: 5 Dead In MO SR-22 Chrash

Owner was aboard and was instrument rated. Ceilings were LOW. There was fuel- there WAS a fire. CFIT by the debris trail.....

"Improper IFR" or he stalled it and almost recovered.
 
Re: 5 Dead In MO SR-22 Chrash

Sad deal for sure.........:sad::sad:

Five people in a SR-22 ?:dunno::dunno:

Pace identified those killed as Robin Melton, 46, of Ozark, and John Lambert, 44, and his children, Joshua Lambert, 10, McKinley Lambert, 15, and Grayson Lambert, 16, all of Springfield.
 
Re: 5 Dead In MO SR-22 Chrash

I am continually reminded that every pilot needs "Lord, don't let me screw up today" stenciled inside his eyeglasses.
 
Re: 5 Dead In MO SR-22 Chrash

Five people in a SR-22 ?:dunno::dunno:
Sure; with the "flexible seating option" the back seat can accommodate three (three kids or a combo of kids and adults). Middle seat is sort of half-width (might flip down to become an armrest if there are only two back there, I don't remember), and there are three restraints with lap and shoulder belts.

But in this case, I guess none of that really mattered... :(
 
Re: 5 Dead In MO SR-22 Chrash

Owner was aboard and was instrument rated. Ceilings were LOW. There was fuel- there WAS a fire. CFIT by the debris trail.....

"Improper IFR" or he stalled it and almost recovered.

Curious, how do you know that?
 
Re: 5 Dead In MO SR-22 Chrash

Owner was aboard and was instrument rated. Ceilings were LOW. There was fuel- there WAS a fire. CFIT by the debris trail.....

"Improper IFR" or he stalled it and almost recovered.


I'm so glad we don't need the NTSB investigators anymore to determine the cause of plane crashes. Just think how much taxpayer money we can save if we just let other pilots look at a photo and "know" the cause of the crash.

How about we don't speculate and just express our condolences to the family and friends.
 
Re: 5 Dead In MO SR-22 Chrash

I'm so glad we don't need the NTSB investigators anymore to determine the cause of plane crashes. Just think how much taxpayer money we can save if we just let other pilots look at a photo and "know" the cause of the crash.

How about we don't speculate and just express our condolences to the family and friends.
Wow. Craig, that's gotta be a record. 10 minutes.
Yes it's tragic. But it's a good bet you don't file these and match them with the reports 18 months later, do you?

If I do a stupid pilot trick and end up in the paper, I expect you to learn from it.

But I can see your sense is, "Noooooooooooooooooooo". Darned politically correct mentality..... Do you haven any idea how little effort goes into the NTSB "investigation" of a flivver crash? NTSB NEVER comes to the scene. They delegate it to the FAA. The inspector works off the same photos, same weather, same.....oh never mind.
 
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I'm so glad we don't need the NTSB investigators anymore to determine the cause of plane crashes.

Just think how much taxpayer money we can save if we just let other pilots look at a photo and "know" the cause of the crash.

How about we don't speculate and just express our condolences to the family and friends.

I didn't see anyone speculate on a cause of this crash. I DID, however, see some factual information that was available from the posted links.
 
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Re: 5 Dead In MO SR-22 Chrash

I didn't see anyone speculate on a cause of this crash. I DID, however, see some factual information that was available from the posted links.

Post number 3 managed to speculate both a stall and CFIT as causes.
 
The insistence of "no speculation! Nooooo!" on Aviation accidents amongst pilots is silly.

If I crash, I'd want y'all to think of every possible reason it might have occurred and DON'T DO ANY OF THEM.

And as aviators, we owe at least five minutes of time to our significant others to tell them that people speculate about accidents and if we ever have a serious or fatal one, they're GOING to hear things.

And oh yeah, remind them that humans do screw up sometimes.

I'm saying nothing about this particular crash, but golly folks... people acting like its taboo to discuss fatal accidents in our sport/work just because it's one of a few avocations where there are pro investigation teams (many hobbies don't have this), is ludicrous.

Talk. Learn. Discuss. If people screw up and come to the wrong conclusion, and the pros later correct it, there is zero harm in it. Frankly, the dead pilot won't care and if they even took five minutes of time to discuss and plan with SOs about the realities of our flying, the SO isn't going to be bothered either. We must be honest with them and explain that well over 80% of fatal accidents are pilot error.

Go have this conversation with your SO now: "Sweetie, I might make a mistake. And if you go looking for it, you're going to find some folks guessing at what I might have done to kill myself. They may be right, they may be wrong, but I would want them to discuss it because any possible scenario they can avoid because I either did it and was a bad example, or that they even THINK I did, is better for aviation than them not discussing it."

The keep your opinions quiet is a leftover from military and test pilot aviation where folks die regularly and others just hold all comment and strap on another airplane the next day. It's neither healthy nor normal human behavior.

The insinuation that it's "respectful" is overblown, IMHO. You either learn from others mistakes or you make your own.

We've all known someone pesonally who crashed and dies in aviation eventually. All it takes is time. It's a rare aviator who reaches his day to hang it up who didn't meet a single other pilot who died flying. The more you meet, the greater your chances.

Why not honor them by looking hard under every rock for things they might have done that we should avoid? Waiting to assess doesn't really help. Getting a professional opinion 12-18 months later is great. But there's no harm in talking about it before that.

Every pilot before they die is a "great pilot, very safe!" to all their non-pilot friends and family, no matter if they were Bob Hoover himself, or could barely get through a flight review without the CFI calling the FSDO and asking for advice.

This is also another fallacy one should squash with their SO... "I'm not the best pilot in the World, and I always try to size up my limitations against the conditions. This is why I sometimes say that we aren't going flying today."

That second conversation would save a lot of get-home-itis deaths. If your SO sees nervousness in your eyes and knows you're not Buck Rogers, they just might ask... "Something bothering you about this flight, hon?"

Seriously. Get over this bad culture of "keep it in". It's not good for aviation at all, unless we're trying harder for a macho John Wayne steeley-eyed perfect pilot image, more than we're just trying to get through a lifetime of flying, alive.
 
Re: 5 Dead In MO SR-22 Chrash

Sure; with the "flexible seating option" the back seat can accommodate three
Yeah, but this "3 in the back" is a fairly recent addition to SR22 (last or this year) so I am not sure if they were really legal in a 2002 SR22.
 
A sad day indeed for all those and the families involved :( Another reason to be vigilant when we go up.

Is it me or does Cirrus seem to be in the news the majority of the time when a GA crash happens?
 
A sad day indeed for all those and the families involved :( Another reason to be vigilant when we go up.

Is it me or does Cirrus seem to be in the news the majority of the time when a GA crash happens?

Because they crash alot, and make a big fireball when they do.
 
Re: 5 Dead In MO SR-22 Chrash

Yeah, but this "3 in the back" is a fairly recent addition to SR22 (last or this year) so I am not sure if they were really legal in a 2002 SR22.
I see. Looked around a little and did not see any mention of a retrofit to put these seats in the earlier models, so it's possible someone in the back did not really have a seat (or a seat belt).
Obviously, if one pax did not have a seat belt, it probably didn't matter much in this case... but what about W&B? I wonder how much difference there is between the earlier and new models.

...not speculating BTW... just wondering. The disposition of the wreckage will probably not allow investigators to figure out how it were loaded, anyway. The pics show mostly cones and a few tarps covering some very flat, spread-out wreckage. Very bad.
 
Re: 5 Dead In MO SR-22 Chrash

I see. Looked around a little and did not see any mention of a retrofit to put these seats in the earlier models, so it's possible someone in the back did not really have a seat (or a seat belt).
Obviously, if one pax did not have a seat belt, it probably didn't matter much in this case... but what about W&B? I wonder how much difference there is between the earlier and new models.

...not speculating BTW... just wondering. The disposition of the wreckage will probably not allow investigators to figure out how it were loaded, anyway. The pics show mostly cones and a few tarps covering some very flat, spread-out wreckage. Very bad.

The oldest was 15, 10, 8 something like that. W&B should have been good?. :dunno:
 
Re: 5 Dead In MO SR-22 Chrash

I see. Looked around a little and did not see any mention of a retrofit to put these seats in the earlier models, so it's possible someone in the back did not really have a seat (or a seat belt).
Obviously, if one pax did not have a seat belt, it probably didn't matter much in this case... but what about W&B? I wonder how much difference there is between the earlier and new models.

...not speculating BTW... just wondering. The disposition of the wreckage will probably not allow investigators to figure out how it were loaded, anyway. The pics show mostly cones and a few tarps covering some very flat, spread-out wreckage. Very bad.

It is legal for two pax to share one seatbelt. I'm not condoning it, mind you. I'm just saying that it's legal.

I don't think that a flight with 3 in the back would be illegal as long as all occupants were wearing seatbelts while the aircraft taxied and took off.. Even without the flex seating option.
 
Is it me or does Cirrus seem to be in the news the majority of the time when a GA crash happens?
I don't think so.
Some simply take special interest in Cirrus crashes (whatever the motives).
I just took a quick look at the NTSB accident list for the month of August and out of 30 or so fatal GA accidents there was but one Cirrus and the rest your typical variety of GA makes and models, some with multiple deaths per plane. So if by 'news' you mean what you read on internet forums - that's probably true.
 
Re: 5 Dead In MO SR-22 Chrash

So look at the photos, Jim, while they are still up. Come to any different ideas?

Or hide head in sand.....:yikes:

I absolutely agree that speculation is worthwhile. But I was unable to see what was to be learned from your speculation because it seemed to me to provide at least two (or three?) possible causes. I also I don't know what you meant by "Improper IFR". Flying VFR into IMC?

I disagree with your assertion that we have all the information that an investigator is likely to have. The one person I personally knew who died in an aviation accident turned out to have THC in his blood, indicating use of marijuana within 3 hours of the accident. The NTSB listed it as a contributing factor.

We also don't have the radar tracks and any ATC communications. If he was IFR then his dealings with ATC might add insight. The video story on this web page includes an interview with witnesses who claimed to have thought the airplane sounded like it might have had problems prior to impact.

If it turned out the pilot knew there was a problem, then why didn't he deploy the parachute? That is the frustrating aspect to me.
 
Agree with the above, speculation makes sense if there is a bit more info available, more than a few not so good photos. We can only guess that with very high probability the accident was weather/night-related rather than say aircraft-related which is hardly a very illuminating discovery.
 
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Re: 5 Dead In MO SR-22 Chrash

I disagree with your assertion that we have all the information that an investigator is likely to have.
I asserted this where? I hsaid he uses the same photos, the same weather. I never excluded addidtional items. You are exposing your own inferences.

I merely pointed out that flivver NTSB investigations have precious little more than the photographs of the scene. Alcohol from the Vitreous Humor is fairly unreliable; yes he may have hair HPLC in a few weeks....but you can be sober or plotzed and still stall it or CFIT it.....

We are not talking cause here, we are talking modality of the END.
 
If it turned out the pilot knew there was a problem, then why didn't he deploy the parachute? That is the frustrating aspect to me.

It's frustrating to all. The handles don't get pulled often enough, and there has been quite a bit of study and discussion about it over the years.

There is a minimum demonstrated deployment altitude, but the head of BRS has pointed out before that even if the thing doesn't fully deploy, it's at the very least a huge amount of centerline drag in aircraft that don't fire the rockets out sideways, which will certainly slow an impact and lower the forces involved exponentially.

A significant complication with CFIT accidents is that the pilot at no time thinks they're out of control.

Out of control, pull the handle. No one disagrees with that statement.

The concept here to me that seems to stand out is that pilots flying aircraft with BRS capability need to make a small but critical change in thought process.

And I think it needs to go like this:

Anytime the altitude or location of the aircraft is in doubt below [insert arbitrary number here] altitude in IMC, the aircraft must be considered to be out of the pilot's control.

Out of control, pull the handle. Now.

We can all second-guess you later when you're alive sitting in the FBO talking to us. Seriously.

IMC, to me, takes this thought process change. I'll explain why.

If the aircraft is wildly pitching, banking and yawing, we instinctively call that "out of control" in VMC if we don't know how to correct it. Most of us would pull the handle.

IMC, if the instruments are showing a similar mess. We also consider that "out of control" and pull the handle. No problem there.

But many pilots don't consider being lost on an approach and not really knowing where the aircraft is in space or more importantly, in height over terrain, an "out of control" condition.

It is. You aren't in control.

If you don't know where you are IMC, you're not truly in control of the aircraft...

At high altitude, you may have some free time to figure it out. It should be trained at high altitude as "out of control with a deferring factor on pulling the chute". Instructors can do this one safely. Get the student to say, "Out of control", reach for the cover on the handle, and then say "deferring with altitude" and then find themselves.

And at low altitude, it's simply "out of control, no altitude deferral, pull the chute".

That's my admittedly amateur take on one possible change to training to get the brain operating in the proper frame of reference.

"Out of control" doesn't need to mean "violent maneuvers". It means you aren't in control of your location in space and time right now.

Out of control means you pull the handle, unless you have a darn good reason not to. That darn good reason should include altitude as the first possible deferral.
 
Nate,

I think that analysis is colored by your location. Here in the Midwest (and in many other locations, I'm sure), even if you don't know precisely where you are, as long as you're above about 800' - 1,500' (yes, these altitudes are location specific), add power and climb! Is there a possibility of a tower out there that'll smite you? Sure!

But the probability that you'll hit it, as opposed to having an injury deploying the BRS that low, seems to be a pretty good bet!

Note that this analysis does NOT pertain near big rocks like you deal with! I guess that this is another way of saying that it comes down to situational awareness!
 
Yeah Grant, I know. That's why I left the altitude below which one must pull, a non-defined number. Technically you'd have to calculate it for each departure and approach.

A good starting point might be the MSA. With sectored MSAs that gets tricky to use though. Since by definition you probably don't know which sector you're in.

I don't think I'd argue with any pilot who said they were lost below MSA and pulled the handle though. Would you?

There is a fine line here somewhere between trying to fix it and going with known best data at the time.
 
Re: 5 Dead In MO SR-22 Chrash

The oldest was 15, 10, 8 something like that. W&B should have been good?. :dunno:

It is legal for two pax to share one seatbelt. I'm not condoning it, mind you. I'm just saying that it's legal.

I don't think that a flight with 3 in the back would be illegal as long as all occupants were wearing seatbelts while the aircraft taxied and took off.. Even without the flex seating option.

Sad accident; the kids were pretty small / skinny. The news posted this picture of the family, taken by Robin and posted on Grayson's twitter feed. The picture was taken in KC the night of the crash, at the Royals game they had attended (their reason for the trip).

article-2203861-15092D68000005DC-171_634x691.jpg
 
I'm not finding any IFR departure for an SR-22 from KLXT to Springfield, or any IFR arrival into KSGF matching the time of the accident. I wonder if he was VFR? FAA Airmen's database shows he was instrument rated.

Weather was VFR departing LXT, but IFR into SGF. Popup IFR generally shows up on FlightAware, does it not?
 
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Re: 5 Dead In MO SR-22 Chrash

It is legal for two pax to share one seatbelt. I'm not condoning it, mind you. I'm just saying that it's legal.

I don't think that a flight with 3 in the back would be illegal as long as all occupants were wearing seatbelts while the aircraft taxied and took off.. Even without the flex seating option.
I don't think that the legality of an action is always a consideration.
 
At high altitude, you may have some free time to figure it out. It should be trained at high altitude as "out of control with a deferring factor on pulling the chute". Instructors can do this one safely. Get the student to say, "Out of control", reach for the cover on the handle, and then say "deferring with altitude" and then find themselves.

And at low altitude, it's simply "out of control, no altitude deferral, pull the chute".
Nate, you'r correct, it's a paradigm shift.

Long ago in a far off galaxy, we were were trained to exit the a/c by 10,000. Cirri, I understand, need just under 1,000 if upright. Of course, being at 500 AGL on approach is then problemmatic.....
 
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According to the Cirrus forum, the pilot's tail number is blocked so that is why there is no flight aware track. ATC tapes show he was on an IFR flight plan. Also, while it is legal but stupid to strap two passengers into one seat as long as their combined weight is less than 170lbs, the POH must allow for it. In the case of the Cirrus, the model in question is limited to 4 people.
 
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