3 things I wish bikers would remember

[Pi1otguy]

I've been doing a bit of driving lately and for all the complaints bikers have about us cagers I've got just a few small gripes. If I have just one less near miss next week I'll be happy. It's almost like 50% of the bikers have nothing in that helmet.

1. Rush hour is not a high speed slalom course - I get it. Rush hour and gridlock doesn't apply to bikes. You can just drive between cars and treat our side mirrors like a slalom course as you weaver left & right passing us within mere inches. Please just slow it down a bit as other traffic limits our vision of you speeding down on us to several car lengths and we can't get out of the way when we're not moving. I've had my mirror clipped twice and seen a few near misses due to lane changes.

2. Stunts near other traffic - If there are more then 4 cars within 40 ft of you then it's too crowded for that BS. Checking my 3 o'clock to see a biker standing up with arms out while doing 80 mph for 5 seconds is not good. If stuff goes wrong I'd like to pretend I can dodge u and the bike and your gear will keep things from getting messy as you dismount at 80 mph. My experience in dodging freshly blown truck tires taught me dodging 2 items (you & the bike) in traffic gets tricky at best.

3. Blinds spots, large vehicles, & rapid lane changes - Coming from the behind the opposite side of a large truck then speeding my way expecting me to see & clear an little space for you to squeeze between me and the car next to me in under 3 seconds leads to clipped side mirrors. If I've got 3 seconds to choose between towards oncoming traffic to let him through or let whatever happens happen then guess which one wins?

And yea, I know I'm just complaining, but I'm tired of my mirrors getting clipped.

 

[EdFred]

Last I knew "white lining" was legal in California. Dont want your mirror clipped? Stay in the middle of your lane. That said, I have seen a few guys white line a little too fast.

I agree with number 2.

I don't understand what you are saying in number 3.

 

[Pi1otguy]

Last I knew "white lining" was legal in California. Dont want your mirror clipped? Stay in the middle of your lane. That said, I have seen a few guys white line a little too fast.

Some of the older lanes get a bit slim. That said, it's the speed. Only fast guys have clipped me.

I don't understand what you are saying in number 3.

Yesterday an 18 wheeler was behind me in the next lane. a bike darts out from behind the trailer into my lane, cuts infront of the truck to get around a car then "white lines" between me and a windowsless van. The van doesn't see him and drifts towards me (within his lane) forcing me to edge closer to oncoming traffic or crush the biker.

If the bike didn't "come out of nowhere" so fast I could have adjusted my spacing so he wouldn't nearly get crushed between an suv and a van.

BTW, almost all of this happens in the city. I don't know what's the deal with urban some (not all) bikers.

 

[Everskyward]

Last I knew "white lining" was legal in California.

Is it legal anywhere else? California is the only place where I have noticed it. California bikers should remember if they zip by an out-of-state driver between lanes they are probably going to be startled by it more than would a California driver.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Is it legal anywhere else? California is the only place where I have noticed it. California bikers should remember if they zip by an out-of-state driver between lanes they are probably going to be startled by it more than would a California driver.

I've seen it on the Long Island Expressway in New York...I was under the impression, perhaps wrongly, that it was illegal. I'm not familiar with motercycle laws.

As a "cager" I try to remember to give them space to menuver around potholes, gravel, puddles, and junk that is dangerous to them but only annoying to me. They also can stop in a shorter distance so I don't follow too close.

 

[bsdunek]

From what I get out of P1lotguy's post, is that there are a lot of stupid motorcyclists out there. I see them on their crotch rockets at 20-30 mph faster than traffic weaving and bobbing from lane to lane and between cars. The smart ones don't have to do that. I haven't seen one buy the farm yet, but they are in our local paper about every two weeks in the summer.
Just cool it a little. We can't always see you when you dart out from behind a truck, and remember, you have no protection.

 

[gprellwitz]

From what I get out of P1lotguy's post, is that there are a lot of stupid motorcyclists out there. I see them on their crotch rockets at 20-30 mph faster than traffic weaving and bobbing from lane to lane and between cars. The smart ones don't have to do that. I haven't seen one buy the farm yet, but they are in our local paper about every two weeks in the summer.
Just cool it a little. We can't always see you when you dart out from behind a truck, and remember, you have no protection.

30 years ago I remember driving the Pacific Coast Highway in a rental car. That is a two lane (one lane each direction), windy road built into the side of the hill, with the outboard side leading to the Pacific Ocean. I think the speed limit was somewhere around 45. We'd regularly see "crotch rockets" zooming along at what seemed to be about 80 MPH, passing cars on blind turns, so they'd be in the oncoming lane. At the time (this was soon after I got my driver's license), it appeared that the only place anyone could go to avoid a collision was down the mountain into the Pacific Ocean. Scared the bejeesus out of me, and left me with very little respect for the riders of those bikes. Yeah, they may be a minority, but the law of primacy strikes!

And that, kids, is why we always want to fly/ride safely and courteously! You never know the kind of lasting impression you'll leave. Let's make it a positive one!

 

[murphey]

I'm one of those guys that lane splits in traffic on a motorcycle. It can be done safely, and unsafely. I don't go any faster that I can stop if someone pulls in front of me, and I don't go in places where someone CAN pull in and cut me off. I pretend I'm invisible and nobody can see me. That's kept me alive for the last 25+ years. Unfortunately, there are some bad apples out there too on bikes.

But I do ask a few things of drivers out there on the road. I find that for the most part, they tend to be fairly courteous, but I encounter real a** holes out there too.

1. Understand that every motorcycle that is lane sharing in heavy traffic, is occupying one less space that a car or truck could be occupying.

And your point is? When I take the bus, light rail or walk, there's one less car on the road, too.

2. Some motorcycles, particularly air cooled motorcycles, cannot sit in traffic without moving for an extended time or they will overheat.

You made the choice to ride that model.

3. Please note that we like to go between the #1 and #2 lanes. That is usually where the biggest gap is.

4. Please signal your lane change, and don't change abruptly. You should do that anyway, but it helps us out particularly.

And will you do the same?

5. Please don't get annoyed if we sometimes zip by you for no apparent reason. Most of the time we are trying to get out of an unsafe spot. To the extent that we aren't riding faster than traffic, control and reaction dictates, speed is our friend. We don't have a several thousand pound ring of steel around us to protect us from other vehicles so we have to compensate with our maneuverability.

6. Please don't deliberately try to block us off when we are trying to get past you. This makes you look like an idiot and only serves to aggravate the traffic problem.

[/quote]

And my complaint is highbeam brights in daylight. I see you. There's no need to blind me. When you are behind me with highbeams on, I'm forced to go to "night mode" on my rearview mirror. The result is that I don't have daylight vision for other vehicles, it's difficult, sometimes impossible to see the other vehicles. And that's a real safety issue.

 

[OshKosh]

I have 20+ years riding motorcycles (annually more miles on my bike now than in my truck).

My bike will do 170+, easy...

Which way do you think I'm gonna lean on this one?

I agree 100% with the OP, on all three points (and then some). I love to ride. And because I love to ride, I can't stand when other bikers act like idiots, because it makes riding for me more dangerous for one simple reason: Other drivers treat me like one of the idiots.

Yes, lane splitting is legal (in CA anyway), because as Sac Arrow mentioned, some bikes will overheat if they sit in traffic. But most bikes on the road today do not have this issue, and I would bet that 90% or more of the bikers who do lane split today are not lane splitting to keep from overheating (though they are all quick to suggest it). They're doing it because they want to get where they're going without having to wait - because they can. Period. In my opinion, there is NO reason to lane split if traffic is moving. As the driver of a vehicle in bumper to bumper traffic, it's hectic enough to try to get to the lane you need to, or keep from hitting the other drivers cutting you off because they want in your lane - without having to worry about bikes further intruding on your safety cushion of 3 feet of space on either side.

The secondary argument that bikers are taking up less space on the road should somehow be rewarded for doing so is laughable. I ride because I love it, and to save gas, and to use the carpool lane. Not because I want others to appreciate that I'm taking less space on the road.

I don't think anyone has argued here yet that stunts aren't stupid. Fun, perhaps, but they have no business around other traffic.

Regarding abrupt lane changes and riding fast, or zipping by: Riding aggressively is fun - no doubt. But it's not safe. Riders do it because bikes are more manueverable. They have more torque/acceleration. It can be a rush. But it's not necessary. Yes, sometimes a biker needs to swerve or accelerate to get out of a bad situation. But 9 times out of 10 when this happens, the biker put themselves in the bad situation by riding unsafe to begin with. Like riding 20 mph faster than traffic and weaving in and out because you don't want to slow down and do the speed limit (or at least stay with the flow of traffic).

My personal peeve is when I'm driving a vehicle passing a semi. When I started passing the semi there was nobody behind me. By the time I get to the front of the semi, there's a bike approaching rapidly in my rearview. And as I pass the semi, if I don't move to the right the very instant it's possible to do so, the biker romps on it and shoots for the gap. This is not safe OR smart.

Now, some bikers will say "But I had to get around the semi fast, because it's not safe to ride next to one. They can't see bikes, and I'm a gonner if one of their tires blows!" To which I'd respond: you're absolutely correct! So SLOW DOWN, and hang behind the semi until there is enough room for you to safely pass.

You want to get around traffic and reduce a 3 hour commute down to one, fly a plane. (This is an aviation forum, after all. I had to tie it in! )

Motorcyclists are taking enough risk just being on the road, trying to be seen by other drivers. It's foolish to be doing anything that is going to influence drivers to not care or downright express animosity or aggression when they do see us.

If I didn't ride, and saw the antics many bikers display today, I'd shrug and think, "That was pretty stupid, but hey - it's your life!" However, because I DO ride, when I see the BS some riders pull, it ticks me off. Because all I can think about is the negative impression they give all the other drivers about people who ride motorcycles.

For all the bikers out there thinking I must not have fun when I ride, think again. I have a ton of fun. I just save the screwing around for when there's nobody else around.

For all the non-bikers out there, please know that not all bikers share the same "rule the road" attitude.

In 20 years of riding, I've never had a single accident. Never been down - not once. I suspect it's only a matter of time before something happens, but I've avoided more accidents than I can count simple because I was riding cautiously. I'd rather be called a pansy than be called dead.

Ride safe!

~ OshKosh

 

[gprellwitz]

Thanks, Oshkosh! And I want to make it clear that I'm not painting all riders with the brush wielded by those "idiots" that I encountered on the PCH. Though I'm sure they had a blast, and I'd love to do it myself, if I had a closed course!

 

[AdamZ]

There are jerks on bikes and there are jerks in cars.

 

[John Baker]

There are jerks on bikes and there are jerks in cars.

Especially in Los Angeles. I think it might have something to do with the smog they breath, probably affects how information is passed between their corneas and their brain receptors. I avoid Los Angeles as much as I can.

John

 

[Doggtyred]

Is it legal anywhere else? California is the only place where I have noticed it. California bikers should remember if they zip by an out-of-state driver between lanes they are probably going to be startled by it more than would a California driver.

California is the only place that legalized lane splitting...

 

[mantakos]

I've been riding for decades, and I generally bore whoever is stuck in the car with me with my tirades against idiot motorcyclists (just as I sometimes bore people stuck here with tirades against idiot pilots).

I'm not sure I even buy into the general concept of "lane splitting". The entire premise is that it opens up lanes, and thus increases capacity, but you're only really increasing capacity if you can lane-split through all the choke points where all the actual congestion arises. If the motorcyclist has to re-merge back into a lane to get through that traffic choke-point (e.g. an exit ramp backed up by merging, an accident, a toll-booth, lane ending, etc), then the lane splitting has only accomplished his "butting in line", as the capacity at the choke point was not increased.

I've ridden many air-cooled bikes, and never had a bike that couldn't survive bumper-to-bumper traffic.
-harry

 

[Pi1otguy]

Thanks, Oshkosh! And I want to make it clear that I'm not painting all riders with the brush wielded by those "idiots" that I encountered on the PCH.

PCH is another story. Last I saw on the news kids were "car surfing" on pch.

Especially in Los Angeles. I think it might have something to do with the smog they breath, probably affects how information is passed between their corneas and their brain receptors. I avoid Los Angeles as much as I can.

John

Yes, actually this happens to me mainly in LA. Riders far away from there are actually alright. But I don't trust your SD air. I don't trust air I can't see. What's it hidding?

 

[Everskyward]

I lived for a while in CA when I was in my early 20s so I knew about lane splitting although I did not ride a motorcycle at that time. Then I moved away and a few years later returned with a friend as a passenger on a motorcycle. He couldn't believe that they allowed lane splitting and thought it was one of the stupidest things he had ever heard of. I tend to agree. I don't buy the "traffic is bad so it needs to be that way" argument. I have recently spent a significant amount of time visiting and driving a car in the Bay Area and I don't find the traffic to be any worse than in major cities in any other part of the country.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

I lived for a while in CA when I was in my early 20s <SNIP>

So.....that was just a couple of years ago?

 

[Everskyward]

So.....that was just a couple of years ago?

 

[colohan]

I have recently spent a significant amount of time visiting and driving a car in the Bay Area and I don't find the traffic to be any worse than in major cities in any other part of the country.

Having lived in several major North American cities (Toronto, Pittsburgh, New York, Boston, and now the Bay Area) -- Bay Area traffic is not that bad. It certainly can't hold a candle up to the 401 in Toronto.

One difference -- people are more likely to set them selves up with mind-numbingly crazy-far commutes in the Bay Area. Commuting from Sacramento to the Bay Area by car? (That's 77 miles if you mean "Berkeley" as the Bay Area, and 120 miles if you mean Sunnyvale.) Crazy. Doing this in an hour without significantly breaking the speed limit? Good luck.

Chris

 

[jesse]

I rode about 3 hours worth of I-80 yesterday and will do the same today. Only two cars merged into me then proceeded to give me the middle finger for no obvious reason. Always love that.

The main thing to remember is those of us on motorcycles want to be nowhere near cars/trucks/semis. We'll limit our exposure to you as much as possible because we realize we're harder to see and a fender bender for you is a busted body for us. Sometimes we might have to quickly accelerate to eliminate a threat. Braking sometimes is an option but usually there is some ******* following us too closely that might smash us into the next county if we jump on the brakes.

One common scenario is an ******* tailgating us, a car in front of us, and a car on both our sides. I always hate this, and work to get out of it ASAP, but sometimes traffic forces you into it. Suddenly one of those cars merges into you. All we can do is throw the ponies in and slide between the cars in front of us. Most of the time those people have no idea that we did so to save our ass and instead think we're just riding too fast and cutting people off.

I can tell you that I'm more aware of what's happening then most people in the cars are. There is nothing to distract me and I have way better visibility. I just wish people wouldn't ASSUME I'm just some idiot on a sports bike trying to kill myself...and instead pay attention and notice that they nearly killed me.

I've never lived in a lane-splitting state and pretty much never do it. A couple of times I've gotten stuck in heavy traffic where cars literally weren't moving. 100F+ OAT, sun beating down, sitting on black tar in an air-cooled bike with a helmet and gear. The motorcycle is overheating and I'm about ready to have a stroke. I've had this happen twice and I eventually end up splitting lanes or riding past everyone on the shoulder. It ****es people off but really I'm just avoiding a possible heat stroke, severe engine damage, and making more room for traffic. If I pass out from the heat I promise it'll just make the traffic worse for you.

 

[OshKosh]

I can't tell where you live, but from your handle I'm assuming you don't live in California. Our traffic here is really very bad, and there are places that if you don't lane share you don't MOVE (and for that matter, if you don't ride a motorcycle, you don't move.)

I was born and raised here - yes I'm familiar with the traffic. And I'm definitely not saying that the traffic is a walk in the park. But this argument furthers the divide between drivers and bikers.

Don't tell me it's a myth that motorcycles ease traffic congestion.

I can tell you whatever I want - you don't have to believe it. I don't have any statistical evidence to prove or disprove the 'myth'. However, it is my opinion that a handful of motorcycles amongst thousands of vehicles does very little to ease traffic congestion (in CA). It is a benefit for the few on the bikes, but none whatsoever to those that are not. If anything, thousands of drivers watching a select few weave in and out of traffic can further the frustration of having to deal with slow and already hectic traffic. Tensions are high in rush hour traffic - I don't need to increase that for anyone. I'd like to think that staying with the flow of traffic and getting there the same time they do demonstrates to all those other drivers out there that some bikers are respectful; this may be subtle. I know there are other bikers who disagree because I've had this discussion with fellow riders. However demonstrating this to the other drivers stuck with me in traffic far outweighs the benefit of getting somewhere before they do. Perhaps I'm just a 'wait in line' kind of guy, and it irks me when I see others who aren't. This type of thing just screams 'Me, me, me...' and 'I really don't give a carp about anyone else'.

An analogy that comes to my mind: a kid walking to the ice cream shop to get some ice cream on a really hot day. You walk past a bunch of other kids gathered outside wishing they had enough money to buy some themselves. I'd have a hard time going in and buying myself a nice big triple scoop, and then standing outside eating it in front of them all - just because I can. But hey - that's just me...

I spend a fair amount of time in Southeast Asia.

The benefit of reducing congestion may certainly be different in Asia where the ratio is significantly higher. But I don't buy it here. I personally feel that this is one more of those arguments that some bikers make to justify the riding habits they exhibit that further alienates them from non-riders.

I don't expect everyone will always share my opinion, 'tis what makes the world go-round!

I think Adam sums it all up with this one:

There are jerks on bikes and there are jerks in cars.

Ride Safe!

~ OshKosh

 

[OshKosh]

The main thing to remember is those of us on motorcycles want to be nowhere near cars/trucks/semis. We'll limit our exposure to you as much as possible because we realize we're harder to see and a fender bender for you is a busted body for us. Sometimes we might have to quickly accelerate to eliminate a threat. Braking sometimes is an option but usually there is some ******* following us too closely that might smash us into the next county if we jump on the brakes.

Agreed - 100%!

One common scenario is an ******* tailgating us, a car in front of us, and a car on both our sides. I always hate this, and work to get out of it ASAP, but sometimes traffic forces you into it. Suddenly one of those cars merges into you. All we can do is throw the ponies in and slide between the cars in front of us. Most of the time those people have no idea that we did so to save our ass and instead think we're just riding too fast and cutting people off.

Also in agreement with this.

I can tell you that I'm more aware of what's happening then most people in the cars are. There is nothing to distract me and I have way better visibility. I just wish people wouldn't ASSUME I'm just some idiot on a sports bike trying to kill myself...and instead pay attention and notice that they nearly killed me.

Also spot-on...

I've never lived in a lane-splitting state and pretty much never do it. A couple of times I've gotten stuck in heavy traffic where cars literally weren't moving. 100F+ OAT, sun beating down, sitting on black tar in an air-cooled bike with a helmet and gear. The motorcycle is overheating and I'm about ready to have a stroke. I've had this happen twice and I eventually end up splitting lanes or riding past everyone on the shoulder. It ****es people off but really I'm just avoiding a possible heat stroke, severe engine damage, and making more room for traffic. If I pass out from the heat I promise it'll just make the traffic worse for you.

And at the risk of contradicting my prior posts - I agree with almost all of this (the only exception being the bold): This is basically the scenario that would cause me to lane split - Very hot temps and very slow/stopped traffic. When it's hot out, and you're on a bike and not moving, it can become a safety issue. We don't have AC (if we're not moving). Add to that protective gear (leather and or kevlar jackets in 100+ temps are great!), helmet, gloves, and the possibility of a heat stroke is very real.

As far as everything else above, I think you did a great job explaining the subtle concepts that drivers typically don't realize, and all too many bikers abuse by using as excuses for why they ride like morons.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

I rode about 3 hours worth of I-80 yesterday and will do the same today. Only two cars merged into me then proceeded to give me the middle finger for no obvious reason. Always love that.

Lovely.

<SNIP> Braking sometimes is an option but usually there is some ******* following us too closely that might smash us into the next county if we jump on the brakes.

Or someone doesn't follow closely, some some other cager sees the "empty" space and jumps in front of the one driving sensibly

No excuse for not leaving space behind the 2-wheeler; just an observation.

<SNIP>
I can tell you that I'm more aware of what's happening then most people in the cars are. There is nothing to distract me and I have way better visibility. I just wish people wouldn't ASSUME I'm just some idiot on a sports bike trying to kill myself...and instead pay attention and notice that they nearly killed me.
<SNIP>

You are...but I've been surprised by some foolish person on a sports bike a few times shooting the gap between cars just because they could- and those people don't enhance goodwill between cagers & 2-wheelers.

As was said earlier, there's good and bad drivers out there....drive carefully no matter what you drive.

 

[jesse]

Another 3 hours of riding today. There was some car going 5 mph under the speed limit in the fast lane. I sat behind them for about two miles waiting for them to move over. Finally I signaled, dropped a gear, moved over into the right lane and started to pass them. Another vehicle moved over and was going to do the same. As soon as I was halfway up their car they swerved aggressively into my lane without signaling. I hammered down on the throttle and ended up getting clear of them just as they were pushing me onto the fog line. I was glad I dropped from 5th to 4th gear already.

Not sure if it was intentional or unintentional. Either way - they almost made me into their pinball. I didn't stick around them for too long to give them another chance. I created a lot of separation.

 

[Henning]

Last I knew "white lining" was legal in California. Dont want your mirror clipped? Stay in the middle of your lane. That said, I have seen a few guys white line a little too fast.

I used to lane split regularly, I understand his points, there's plenty of people who can't ride worth a s-t who do it, and while it may be legal to do in California, it Does NOT constitute Right of Way. If you are doing it, and you get into an accident, the entire accident is your liability.

 

[gismo]

Last I knew "white lining" was legal in California. Dont want your mirror clipped? Stay in the middle of your lane. That said, I have seen a few guys white line a little too fast.

While riding between lanes of cars is indeed legal in CA (AFaIK it's not specifically "allowed" but rather isn't specifically prohibited like it is here either), I'm pretty certain that CHP requires that it be done in a "Prudent and Safe manner". I strongly suspect that flying along at 50+ mph in stop and go traffic, let along clipping mirrors wouldn't result in a ticket if witnessed by the appropriate authority. As to the "stay in the middle of your lane" comment IMO it's at least as much the responsibility of the biker to avoid cars as it is on the car drivers to stay away from the white lines.

 

[bbchien]

And yea, I know I'm just complaining, but I'm tired of my mirrors getting clipped.

This is very politically incorrect, guy, all you have to do is open your door. You'll have one less mirror crasher and one less door to worry about.

 

[OshKosh]

Okay, I am finding a hard time figuring out what the real argument is. I'm not even sure what we are arguing about.

Ditto - I didn't intend to turn a matter of perspectives into an argument, but it seems that's what happened. The point I was trying to make to the non-riders out there was that not all riders condone or participate in the hooliganism described by the OP.

Let's get to the real argument - do you think I advocate riding recklessly, or I'm trying to justify it? If so, please read back on my previous posts. I really hate a-hole riders that mess it up for all of us. I advocate riding safely and sanely.

In your original post, you went on the defensive (as a rider) and seemed to be providing more justification for bikers doing the things the OP complained about, and responded with your own 'bikers list of demands" than you did acknowledging that there are bad riders that do irresponsible things. To me, this set more of an 'Us vs. Them' tone, and I felt compelled to explain to 'Them' that not all of 'Us' were of the same mindset.

But if you are of the opinion that any lane sharing, even if done legally and safely, is still enacting hooliganism and should not be permitted, then you have negated the number one reason why I ride. If that is the case, then we don't have anything to talk about and there is no point arguing anything further.

For me, there is lane sharing, (two motorcycles riding side-by-side, or closely staggared in the same lane), and there is lane splitting, (a bike riding the line between two vehicles that are in separate lanes). Granted, these are my own definitions - but I do feel there is a difference. Two bikes in mutual agreement that they are comfortable with sharing a lane is fine with me. When I'm riding solo and bike flies up behind me and then blows past me in my own lane - not so good...

The latter example is almost as bad as lane splitting in my book. It's not something I'm a fan of, whether I'm riding or not. If that's your only reason for riding - that's your prerogative. It's perfectly illegal. The whole point I was trying to make was that I think it's important for people who ride to demonstrate a little respect and empathy for the drivers (and other riders) out there who have issue with motorcycles intruding on a comfort zone, or safety cushion.

When I ride, I like a little extra distance between myself and the vehicle ahead of me - to increase my safety cushion. It gives me more time to realize an escape route if something goes bad; a tire blows, somebody swerves or hits the brakes, (not to mention distance myself from road debris being shot at me from the vehicle ahead). As was mentioned previously in this thread, something minor in a vehicle is a fender bender - but could kill you on a bike. Well, when somebody pulls into that cushion I've created, it feels like my safety zone has been violated. When cars are locked in stop & go traffic, I can only imagine they might feel the same way when they see bikers flying past them on both sides riding the line. Their already minimal cushion has been further reduced - and there's nothing they can do about it.

Again - yes, it's perfectly legal. But I think those who ride would get a little more support from those who don't ride if they responded with, "You know, I can see how that can feel a bit unnerving to have bikes whizzing past one inch from your mirror. Riders should slow down when doing that..." instead of "It's perfectly legal - deal with it." (I'm not saying that's how you put it, but it's a common mentality from those who ride.)

...fly/ride safely and courteously! You never know the kind of lasting impression you'll leave. Let's make it a positive one!

This works for me!

~ OshKosh

 

[Unbeliever]

This is very politically incorrect, guy, all you have to do is open your door. You'll have one less mirror crasher and one less door to worry about.

To turn this into a certification question, how would you maintain your flight medical when you are in jail for assault and/or manslaughter after you do that?

Even if you don't hurt/kill the guy, California vehicle code says the driver of the vehicle has to make sure it won't impact any traffic when they open their door. So you could wind up with a license suspension as a result of that.

--Carlos V.

 

[bbchien]

"Your honor, there was a tremendous sound just to my left and I thought my door was not completely closed. So I tried to close it."

No, seriously, bikers moving into a cage's space move into it at their own risk. Period. Stay more than two feet away on all sides. Ya might be legal, but yer just stoopid.

I respect motorcycle space. I've done many crosscountries in the 70s on an RD350. Ya'll please respect mine. If you've gotta get there that fast, (1) leave earlier, or (2) leave California to a place that's more sane.

 

[bbchien]

Fair enough.



I agree in principle with that, but road rage tactics are inexcuable regardless of who they are directed toward.

"OMG OMG OMG there was this biker right outside my window and I turned the wheel the wrong way".

Driving between is just so dumb dumb dumb. If that's your #1 reason for riding, stay out of my airspace, too.

 

[sba55]

I have 20+ years riding motorcycles (annually more miles on my bike now than in my truck).

My bike will do 170+, easy...

Which way do you think I'm gonna lean on this one?

I agree with pretty much everything you said.

You just can't get annoyed at people's driving. 7 out of 10 car and probably slightly fewer motorcycle drivers aren't good at driving. Nor are they safe. Amazingly, the vast majority think they're good There was a study recently that found that a certain percentage of people simply cannot drive well no matter how they're trained:

http://science.slashdot.org/story/09/10/29/1615214/Bad-Driving-May-Have-Genetic-Basis?from=rss

I've just given up thinking about it. Not a day goes by without some car (usually a 1980s pickup truck) tailgating me. If they were thinking rationally - "hey, my brakes are 30 years old and there's NO way I could possibly stop in 107' from 70-0 like that car in front of me", or "no matter what, I'll get the majority of the blame if I rear-end this car" - they wouldn't do that. I have a car that goes 170, too, and it can brake and corner faster than 99.9% of the cars out there. Yet I find myself driving more conservatively than most of those 1980s truck guys.

You just can't worry about it

-Felix

 

[OshKosh]

You just can't worry about it

While I agree that you can't worry yourself to death about it, I think that worrying about it a little is what keeps me alive. I've had a few close calls, and they were all the result of somebody else doing something stupid or not paying attention. Fortunately, I anticipate it and have been able to avoid disaster.

More than once I have come to an intersection where I had a green light and slowed because something didn't seem right. Sure enough, somebody blows through the red light the other way. Bad enough in any vehicle, but deadly on a bike. Fortunately, I was able to stop because I had already slowed. But on one occasion, the poor guy in the lane next to me got T-boned - simply because he drove though his green light.

So, while I agree there's no sense in worrying yourself to death, I see it a lot like constantly looking for someplace to land in the event of an emergency while flying. No sense in worrying about it - but always be cautious and prepare. I think that goes for piloting any vehicle - bike, car, or plane.

I think Jesse mentioned in a prior post that he's more aware of what's happening than most people in the cars are. I think most riders would agree with this. I know I do. I depend on it for my safety. Unfortunately, I also think that a lot riders rely on this 'heightened awareness' to push the envelope.

~ OshKosh

 

[sba55]

While I agree that you can't worry yourself to death about it, I think that worrying about it a little is what keeps me alive. I've had a few close calls, and they were all the result of somebody else doing something stupid or not paying attention. Fortunately, I anticipate it and have been able to avoid disaster.

More than once I have come to an intersection where I had a green light and slowed because something didn't seem right. Sure enough, somebody blows through the red light the other way. Bad enough in any vehicle, but deadly on a bike. Fortunately, I was able to stop because I had already slowed. But on one occasion, the poor guy in the lane next to me got T-boned - simply because he drove though his green light.

So, while I agree there's no sense in worrying yourself to death, I see it a lot like constantly looking for someplace to land in the event of an emergency while flying. No sense in worrying about it - but always be cautious and prepare. I think that goes for piloting any vehicle - bike, car, or plane.

I think Jesse mentioned in a prior post that he's more aware of what's happening than most people in the cars are. I think most riders would agree with this. I know I do. I depend on it for my safety. Unfortunately, I also think that a lot riders rely on this 'heightened awareness' to push the envelope.

~ OshKosh

You're right of course. It's always good to be vigilant. I was trying to say that it's not worth getting annoyed over it. It is what it is, for better or worse ...

 

[Unbeliever]

I'm trying to keep my cool and be polite about you just posting that you wished death and dismemberment to someone doing something legal.

"Your honor, there was a tremendous sound just to my left and I thought my door was not completely closed. So I tried to close it."

Thank you for admitting you just violated California Vehicle Code 22517, here's your ticket. Oh, and that excuse won't fly for an assault defense, as once you've heard us, we're long gone past where you can do something about us.

No person shall open the door of a vehicle on the side available to moving traffic unless it is reasonably safe to do so and can be done without interfering with the movement of such traffic, nor shall any person leave a door open on the side of a vehicle available to moving traffic for a period of time longer than necessary to load or unload passengers.

Normal "Door not quite closed" movements don't open anywhere near enough to block us.

The law California cops will cite you with if you're being stupid about splitting is most often "unsafe speed for conditions" part of the prima facia speed law.

You are only allowed to split between two lanes going the same direction. So no splitting on the median side or the shoulder side.

For door openings. If it was deliberate with intent to injure, some sort of aggravated assault applies. People don't open their doors in traffic wide enough to block the lane splitter. Usually it's opened wide enough to drop something out the door. That leaves tons of room to avoid the door. If the motorcycle rider is paying attention, normal car movements rarely catch us by surprise, including door stuff. If it is so tight that there is no room to avoid any door opening, then we're pretty much going slow enough to stop on the proverbial dime because there's only a couple inches on each side of our handlebars.

On surface streets and on the freeway, stuff going left and right happens much slower than stuff going back and forth. Except for certain parts of the I10 and I405 in Los Angeles, there's actually tons of room between cars. There is a DOT funded study called "The Hurt Report" by Harry Hurt of USC that cites that splitting is slightly safer than remaining in the lanes for stop-and-go traffic. Better to be the meat of a door panel sandwich then a bumper sandwich.

I've actually been yelled at by the Highway Patrol for NOT splitting. I was caravaning to lead the way for a car behind me on the freeway and it was stop and go. A CHP motorcycle officer rode by, saw me, stopped backpedaled to me and yelled at me "Why aren't you splitting?" I pointed to the car behind me and said "Caravan", which the officer responded "Dude, be careful then!" In the UK, you have to demonstrate proper splitting...errr, I mean filtering, techniques to get a motorcycle license.

On surface streets, I'll split up to intersections, but not if traffic is still moving, or between dual turn lanes, or even a single turn lane if I'm turning also. On the freeway, I'll generally get back into traffic at about 35 to 40 mph, but won't start splitting until it drops below 25 or so.

A friend of mine told me a story of him seeing me lane split past him on a local freeway a couple days prior. I remember seeing his car as I split by as well. He tells me that he thought the guy about 5 cars ahead of him deliberately tried to clobber me. He said that the car moved to the right into me and I smoothly avoided. I responded that I didn't remember anybody trying to kill me, either deliberately or accidentally. I just aim for the center of the gap, and I must have noticed the gap moving and I just followed the gap until I passed the car. At 15 mph faster than the surrounding traffic, there is very little time for any car to have the opportunity to do something to a passing motorcyclist.

One develops a 6th sense about car flows when you ride motorcycles for a while and develop your paranoia. I've even avoided accidents in my car from that 6th sense. I like to surprise my passengers when I point out a car about to do something stupid, which it then proceeds to do. "See that car over there? He's about to cross 3 lanes of traffic without signaling to get off on that exit at the last second." and then he does.

--Carlos V.

 

[Unbeliever]

Also, the US DOT Fatality Analysis Reporting System database shows that fatalities from rear end collisions into motorcycles are 30% lower in California than in Florida or Texas, states with similar riding seasons and populations but which do not lane split.

http://www.whybike.com/blog/index.php?p=147

--Carlos V.

 

[timwinters]

Also, the US DOT Fatality Analysis Reporting System database shows that fatalities from rear end collisions into motorcycles are 30% lower in California than in Florida or Texas, states with similar riding seasons and populations but which do not lane split.

http://www.whybike.com/blog/index.php?p=147

--Carlos V.

Yeah, but in Florida the average driver is 40 years older and in Texas the average IQ 40 points lower.
:wink2:

 

[Henning]

That is absolutely correct. It's the rider's responsibility to avoid traffic. Regrettably, there are some moron riders out there that think it's a right-of-way. Nobody should have their mirrors clipped. If I see that happen, I'll be the first to note the license plate of the rider so a hit and run complaint can be filed.

They truly are morons to do so discourteously. If treffic is stoppec, 8 lanes of parking lot each direction on the 405, if you do 15-20 and just clamly roll along, nobody will mind, the may be envious, but they don't hold it against you. When traffic is rolling, no more than 10mph on top of traffic speed. You start blasting through scaring people, and the reaction changes, and you become a target. I ride myself, if a biker is an idiot and I'm hyaving a bad day, I may take him out just for grins and the satisfaction of eliminating an idiot. It's their risk completely. Doing 70 when everyone else is doing 30 has many hazards.

And an aggravated vehicular assault charge, and possibly vehicular homicide depending on the outcome. Just because someone is riding next to you doesn't give you free reign to intentionally take them out.

Charge away, I'll walk, actually, there won't be charges if I am sober. "Oh, I feel terrible, I didn't see him when I looked in my mirror. Is he going to be okay?" The 7 other witnessess will all report that this idiot just came flying through, scared the hell out of them.... Just one more instance of where poor riding ended up in a fatal accident, this accident happens 3-5 times a day or more in Los Angeles county.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

And my complaint is highbeam brights in daylight. I see you.

That makes you the exception. My experience has been that many drivers either don't see motor cycles (even with high beam + a driving light) or don't care when they turn or pull out in front of them.

And that's a real safety issue.

Indeed.

 

[Unbeliever]

I ride myself, if a biker is an idiot and I'm hyaving a bad day, I may take him out just for grins and the satisfaction of eliminating an idiot. It's their risk completely.

No it's not. You take him out, he loses control, smacks another car or makes another car swerve and lose control, causing an N-car pileup. Congratulations, not only did you take out the idiot, you killed little Timmy too.

Why is physical confrontation the answer? If he's being an idiot, call the cops. I've done it to several other motorcyclists, some with good effect. I am also appalled at splitters who split when traffic is going highway speed, but the answer isn't to "take them out".

Last Thursday, in East Pasadena, I looked up and saw a couple of 172s doing formation flying practice over a congested area. (The Hastings Ranch Ralph's) They were practicing join-ups, and were really bad at it. They almost hit wingtips. This really happened.

Now how's this for an analogous situation:

"Man, those guys are idiots doing formation practice badly over a congested area. I should get one of those 1 Watt lasers and lase them. That will teach them a lesson and take them out of the gene pool."

Same type of reaction, same result, same potential for collateral damage. If you object, why? "Because its an airplane" isn't a satisfactory answer.

--Carlos V.