3 approaches on long x/c

dell30rb

dell30rb

Final Approach
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My airplane is kinda limited on the approaches I can legally fly. For my 250mi cross country, I must do 3 different kinds of approaches. Would a localizer approach, ILS and a VOR approach satisfy those requirements?
 
Yes, and are you sure you're required to do three different KINDS of approaches or just three different approaches?
 
For an instrument -- airplane rating, instrument training on cross- country flight procedures specific to airplanes that includes at least one cross-country flight in an airplane that is performed under IFR, and consists of --
A distance of at least 250 nautical miles along airways or ATC-directed routing;
An instrument approach at each airport; and
Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems;
 
I think you are good to go. You could also through in an ASR or PAR approach if needed and the DPE is a good, accommodating person. With ILS, VOR and Localizer, you can get into a lot of airports.
 
For 400 bucks the dpe better be a good person

This will be discussed in advance with the dpe. Wouldn't go unless I knew he/she would accept this as a legitimate 250mi x/c. Just wanted to get some opinions. My instructor was a little hesitant but did not have time to check this stuff out as we discussed it briefly after our flight tonight.
 
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somorris said:
I think you are good to go. You could also through in an ASR or PAR approach if needed and the DPE is a good, accommodating person. With ILS, VOR and Localizer, you can get into a lot of airports.
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ASR and PAR don't count -- no "use of navigation systems.". ILS, VOR, and LOC are most likely choices (LDA with GS being a sub for ILS and LDA w/o GS being a sub for LOC).
 
Heh, heh, heh - or an NDB (getting scarce but still out there)

denny-o
the devil made me say it
 
Ron is correct, no adf on this bird!

Appreciate the discussion.
 
dell30rb said:
My airplane is kinda limited on the approaches I can legally fly. For my 250mi cross country, I must do 3 different kinds of approaches. Would a localizer approach, ILS and a VOR approach satisfy those requirements?
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You must be doing this Part 61, because I never had to do this. The longest x/c I did was a 220 to KDAL with a BC into TXK on the way back. Our school does everything Part 141. Sometimes I wish it was 61.
 
ARFlyer said:
You must be doing this Part 61, because I never had to do this. The longest x/c I did was a 220 to KDAL with a BC into TXK on the way back. Our school does everything Part 141. Sometimes I wish it was 61.
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Part 141 Appendix C Instrument Rating Course
4. Flight training
(c) Each course must include-
(1) ...at least one cross-country flight that-
(i) is 250 nm
(ii) involves an instrument approach at each airport; and
(iii) involves three different kinds of approaches using navigation systems.


Regarding the IFR X/C part 61 & 141 are the same.
Check it out.
 
ARFlyer said:
You must be doing this Part 61, because I never had to do this. The longest x/c I did was a 220 to KDAL with a BC into TXK on the way back. Our school does everything Part 141. Sometimes I wish it was 61.
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The 3-approch long IFR XC is an explicit part of both the Part 61 and the Part 141 requirements -- compare 61.65 with Appendix C to Part 141:
Part 61 said:
(ii) Instrument flight training on cross country flight procedures, including one cross country flight in an airplane with an authorized instructor, that is performed under instrument flight rules, when a flight plan has been filed with an air traffic control facility, and that involves--
(A) A flight of 250 nautical miles along airways or by directed routing from an air traffic control facility;
(B) An instrument approach at each airport; and
(C) Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems.
Click to expand...
Part 141 said:
(1) For an instrument airplane course: Instrument training time from a certificated flight instructor with an instrument rating on the approved areas of operation in paragraph (d) of this section including at least one cross-country flight that--
(i) Is in the category and class of airplane that the course is approved for, and is performed under IFR;
(ii) Is a distance of at least 250 nautical miles along airways or ATC-directed routing with one segment of the flight consisting of at least a straight-line distance of 100 nautical miles between airports;
(iii) Involves an instrument approach at each airport; and
(iv) Involves three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems.
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If anything, the 141 is more stringent with the "100nm between airports" requirement. If your long IFR XC was only 220nm round trip, your school was breaking the rules when they signed your completion certificate. However, if it was 220nm one-way (i.e., 440nm r/t), that would be fine. Were you confused about that part (one-way vs r/t)?

The big thing you don't need under 141 is the 50 hours of XC PIC time, but on the other had, you need 35 hours of dual under Part 141 compared to only 15 under Part 61.
 
Ron Levy said:
They do if the LDA is with GS, like the LDA approaches at KMTN and KROA.
http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1202/05222LDA33.PDF
http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1202/00349LDA6.PDF
Click to expand...

Ah yes, and the dreaded sailboats warning. Y'all sure do have some weird procedures back east. Here in Texas we worry about stray livestock on the runways, the kind of hazard aviation was designed to have. I can see that would be a good checkride scenario though. I can hear the examiner now to the student on final: "There is a sailboat crossing the approach path 100 feet this side of the threshold. Whatcha gonna do?":)
 
How about a nice big cruise ship? Wouldn't that be far more entertaining? :)
 
Ron Levy said:
The 3-approch long IFR XC is an explicit part of both the Part 61 and the Part 141 requirements -- compare 61.65 with Appendix C to Part 141:

If anything, the 141 is more stringent with the "100nm between airports" requirement. If your long IFR XC was only 220nm round trip, your school was breaking the rules when they signed your completion certificate. However, if it was 220nm one-way (i.e., 440nm r/t), that would be fine. Were you confused about that part (one-way vs r/t)?
The big thing you don't need under 141 is the 50 hours of XC PIC time, but on the other had, you need 35 hours of dual under Part 141 compared to only 15 under Part 61.
Click to expand...

Yeah I was confused on if it was one-way or r/t. I know in COMM I had to do 250NM LEGS. I figured it would be the same. No that x/c was around 500 when I got finished.
 
ARFlyer said:
Yeah I was confused on if it was one-way or r/t. I know in COMM I had to do 250NM LEGS. I figured it would be the same. No that x/c was around 500 when I got finished.
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Do you have to do any of those dual?
 
First, the legs on the long XC required by 61.129(a)(4)(i) don't have to be 250nm, the flight just has to include one landing more than 250nm from the original point of departure and be at least 300nm total distance. You could pogo-stick your way to an airport 251nm from the OPD, then fly 49nm in any direction to the last airport and have it count.

Second, the long XC required by 61.129(a)(4)(i) must be either solo (sole living human occupant of the aircraft) or "simulated solo" (instructor along as insurance ballast but not helping). The two dual XC's required by 61.129(a)(3)(iii/iv) must be flown with an instructor aboard giving training.
 
Did the long x/c on sunday. 260nm, 3 different approaches at three different airports. 3.8 hobbs, 3.0 hood time. Everything worked out very well. I'm still worn out from it though! Having the foggles on for that long is really tedious
 
Glad it worked out for you.

When I did mine, I brought a cooler with lunches for me and the CFII. We stopped after our longest leg, had lunch, and it made the whole experience more pleasant and restful.
 
dell30rb said:
Did the long x/c on sunday. 260nm, 3 different approaches at three different airports. 3.8 hobbs, 3.0 hood time. Everything worked out very well. I'm still worn out from it though! Having the foggles on for that long is really tedious
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Amen to that. And I did mine at night. Wound up doing 4 approaches as we couldn't get HIO to give us something other than a GPS approach and we had already shot one of those. So, did two at home, one missed and one to a landing. That is a long time with foggles. To add insult to injury, my CFII said it was a beautiful night to fly. I wouldn't know...
 
most of my training has been done at night, in the winter, after work. i've gotten very proficient in utilizing crafty lighting solutions as my c152's interior and panel lighting is limited to a single, weak red light mounted on the roof of the cockpit. I had to move the sporty's timer velcro'd to the panel because it was casting a shadow on the attitude indicator, ha
 
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