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Discussion in 'Medical Topics' started by pit2atx, Nov 29, 2017.
Welcome to my world!
(I work as a detective)
Yup. Change is painful. That's why few people have the courage to seek it out. Most people won't change until the pain of where they are exceeds the pain of change.
When it comes to something like dealing with the FAA or money issues, we can be like a toddler who continues to sit in a soiled diaper saying,
“I know it smells bad, but more importantly, it's warm and it's mine.”
I've done many things in my youth that I'm not proud of.
I'm just thankful I was never caught.
You are way off on this one. With his record should the FAA take time to determine if there is a problem..... sure. His record is not an indication there is absolutely without a doubt an issue with the OP. Anyone that thinks he has a drinking dependency and should never be allowed to fly based only on the information in this thread is nutty.
3 SEPERATE alcohol offenses AND he still drinks, and you think he’s good to go? And I’m the nutty one?
Yes. That’s correct.
I never said he was good to go. Go read my post again.
Nope.... two situations as a kid in high school and one dui in college???
I do think we need to look at things in context.
That's waaayyy different than three dui's at age 40.
Maybe try the decaf. Minor in possession does not imply intoxication. It simply implies possession. He has one intoxication offense 8 years ago. Reality, it’s not just for breakfast anymore...
It is complicated by the fact that he doesn't have any court records or proof of BAC for any of the incidents. The FAA's policy is to then assume the worst case. Unfortunately, the burden of proof here is on the OP. If he could show that his DUI had a BAC of less than .15, he would be in a lot better shape. Even one incident with a BAC of .15 or greater and he is facing HIMS.
Two of the "incidents" do not have any allegation of a BAC. There is nothing to assume.
That doesn't get him off the hook for the DUI or change the path he is facing. The two previous incidents are probably being viewed as history. As I said above, "If he could show that his DUI had a BAC of less than .15, he would be in a lot better shape." Maybe there is somewhere he could find that information. Maybe one of the HIMS docs or a good aviation attorney could point him in the right direction.
Well since you bring up reality...I think the reality is I bet the FAA will see things more likely as I do than you...and I’d put money on that bet.
Now that is some twisted...errr, umm, ...rationalization. Reality is what exists when all the opinions are set aside. Reality is not an opinion of some government minion. I've dealt with various federal and state agencies and their "enforcement" attitudes. Yes, lawyers are required because they do not want to listen to mere citizens. At the end of the day they have to follow the regulations.
as aggiemike and others have said ... if and when they ask for a personal statement you can include a couple of letters of rec. U can take them to the psych/psychiatric eval too.
Intoxication isn't the standard. The standard is the use of alcohol in a way that adversely impacts your normal life. Being convicted three times is prima facie evidence of a DSM-V substance abuse. And the FAA rightfully will predict there were more instances that didn't result in arrest records.
You can argue about how you think things SHOULD be, but we are telling you how they are. There's not a prayer that the FAA will accept anything other than complete abstinence. (I had to get Dr. B to start saying that rather than sobriety because many interpret sobriety as just being below .08).
People do dumb stuff when they're young.
What, I can't express my opinion without being accused of thinking I'm better than anyone else?
Yep for sure. Myself included.
Studies also show the earlier someone starts drinking alcohol, the more likely they are to develop problems and dependency.
I haven't seen any of that from the OP.
I appreciate all the responses here! Tough crowd for sure! I came here to simply ask for advice or experiences from anyone or someone they knew in a similar situation. Not once did I "bitch and moan" or asked anyone to feel bad for me Not sure why that keeps coming up..
If there's a path forward, I'll certainly go through with it. I had some fun in my earlier years and got in trouble a few times. I've gone on to graduate from a top tier university, built a success career (outside of aviation of course), and even obtained a government security clearance!! I rarely drink at this point and its not due to my past run ins with the law. I've just realized my metabolism isn't quiiiitttee as good as it once was in my younger years and I'm kind of a health and fitness freak The skies will be safe if I ever get up there folks!
I guess we'll see what the HIMS psych has to say about it
His license was suspended when he was a minor, before the DUI in college.
He’s not acting defiant, nor did I say he was. Read what I wrote. I said “if you’re going to act defiant” not “stop acting defiant.”
OP - Contact Dr. Bruce. This will take a long time to work out. Probably 12 months. It will cost you thousands of dollars. Is it worth it? YEP it sure is. If you have the time, patience, and money - then go for it. However if you are only recreational flying and your a little light on cash you may not want to walk the path. Good luck!
He's already screwed as he has a deferred application in. Frankly, LBFJRMD, our other HIMS AME here, has told him what to do and expect.
I agree he's probably doomed but if anyone can get him through it's Bruce. It will be a long, and expensive road. In any event I wish him the best.
The way the FAA operates, they will do everything they can to avoid a false negative - saying he is OK when he has a problem. His record gives the appearance of maybe having a problem. Therefore it will be assumed. This isn't limited to alcohol and is one of the major drivers behind BasicMed.
For my own situation, I went through about $5000 of heart testing, including a stress test for something that started as "your heart sounds funny" 15 years ago. Diagnosis was pulmonary valve stenosis. The pulmonary valve is the smallest and least important in the heart and mine has an unusually narrow opening (narrow=stenosis). But that prompted a question about X, which prompted a question about Y, which prompted a question about Z and several tests later I'm walking on a treadmill huffing and puffing because there might be a problem. Final decision - there's nothing to worry about, it's probably been that way all my life and we will monitor it with my family doctor...as we've been doing for 15 years now.
As others have said - this guy's can of worms is open now and the only options are to eat the worms or walk away. Cans of worms in the FAA medical system are unusually expensive.
So this is where I think most people are reacting.
You cannot explain this away and as you've seen, it is a bad idea to try. Saying "I screwed up but..." doesn't work and this sounds a lot like that. Letters of recommendation will not help, the decisions will be made on the facts in the case. The facts give the appearance of someone who may have an alcohol problem and in order to prove that you're sober, you'll probably be forced to quit drinking entirely and to be tested for any alcohol use for a certain time period. It probably involves going to AA meeting, with your attendance being monitored. It will suck and the worms will be expensive and not at all tasty.
There is a bright light in the future for you. Once you've been through all the hoops and complied with all the requirements, there is a change you can make once your 3rd class expires - you switch to a program called Basic Medical. Under BM, your family doctor will perform a medical and sign off on the results of that medical. You take a training class and you'll be good to fly, the FAA is not involved and there's no special issuance. The thing stopping you right now is that you cannot have had your medical denied or revoked, so you will have to keep up what they want for the duration of your medical.
It's not a battle, it's providing proof that you are fit to fly. The statement should be: "Ok, I will do all you need me to do to make you (the FAA) comfortable that I am fit to fly." The last thing they want to do is approve you then have you bore a hole in to a loaded hotel from above or kill innocents because you had a known issue. Being stand offish about it or looking at it as a battle where you need to slay the monster will just make tougher on you, they are very good at battles.
Hey OP, I'd have PMed you this but I can't since you are a guest - but I suggest that you simply wait it out until the FAA sends you a letter. (You can and should call every 4-5 business days and ask about your status - that will speed things along). In the meantime contact http://www.aeromedicaldoc.com/ Dr. Bruce. I used him for my situation which involved some similar history (Waaay back in my past, but college age stupidity). If you truly are a non-drinker (or perhaps at most a few drinks a year) now and ready to spend the $$$ for the HIMS stuff, he is the man to shepherd you through the process.
Procedure question: if he is denied and DUI BAC was less than 0.15 can he just reapply in two years? I’m guessing the two minor in possession citations will mean the answer is no.
IF you read his second paragraph in post #8 you will see that he told us that “EVERYONE” at the party (or parties, as this happened more than once and resulted in his driver license being suspended) was cited for an underage alcohol violation. He was heading toward resistance or reluctance to accept his guilt through comparative rationalization. The FAA doesn’t care if he was alone or in a crowd, especially after his 3rd offense. I don’t think the guy has a dependency on alcohol, and I hope he gets to fly some day. THEN again, I’m not the guy he has to convince. (There’s another conditional “IF-THEN” statement for you.)
The young feller who started this thread sounds sincere and willing to do whatever it takes to assuage the FAA of their darkest fears so that he can storm the lofty skies and commit acts of overage aviation. It won’t be easy. If he stays unemotional and does what some very specialized AMEs instruct him to do then he will likely be successful. If he acts defiant, resistant, non-compliant... well, take a guess regarding the outcome.
So, pit2atx, good luck with the process. I hope you keep us posted on your successful future as a pilot.
This thread is making me thirsty
I'm not so sure that the FAA is unemotional.
I agree. I also think it is appropriate for the FAA to determine if the OP has an issue. I don’t think it’s appropriate to say that this guy should never get a pilots license or say he has an issue with alcohol dependency solely based on the information provided in the posts.
But what you don’t know is whether or not he was drinking at those parties. What if he was there drinking cokes because he was driving his buddies home and the cops show up and give everyone a Minor in Possesion ticket. What do you think about him if that’s the case......
I’ll say once again there is not enough information in this thread to pass judgment. The FAA gets to do that when he applies for his medical and all of the facts are available.
I was leaning more towards a good scotch.
Typical Ron the expert. Note that Ron has no standing in the FAA or the medical profession.
Now examine your statements without the passionate claim that you are right because you say so. Intoxication is a standard and it is used every day in DUI cases. Intoxication is used by the FAA medical branch. Now you want to believe minor in possession indicates substance abuse when consumption (use) and intoxication are not even alleged.
So bang your drum and drive all the evil spirits away by supporting the FAA in assuming facts not in evidence and not even alleged.
I chose a different path. I have dealt with misplaced enforcement attitudes/policies/procedures. It takes time and money. If it is wrong then stand up and say so if you’ve got the time and money to do so. If not then ya gotta deal with the situation. At no time do you have to agree that it is right.
Did you bother to listen to the HIMS AMEs here? Intoxication IS not the standard used by the FAA. If intoxication were the only standard, they'd not be worried about those who have demonstrated an alcohol tolerance. While I may not have FAA standing, I at least have read and understood the DSM standard which you apparently are ignorant of. One of the standards there is indeed "recurrent subtance-related legal problems." Note, it doesn't say "use" there. The two minor convictions along with the DUI (which was, on it's face, intoxication), indeed meet the accepted psychiatric standards.
I didn't say I didn't disagree with some of the FAA views, but I am telling you HOW it is with the FAA. The FAA medical deals with the liklihood of a subsequent problem, not just the legal evidence of previous issues.