1st Class Med when actually do have ADHD symptoms?

[BulldogBoy]

I've seen lots of people who took ADHD type medications like Adderall for a bit but stopped, and were probably misdiagnosed to begin with, who ultimately get their 1st class medical certificate. But what about those who really do have problems with short term memory, thinking on their feet, and who are considered "not good test takers" because they fail to understand directions or just can't finish the test, or who get tired before the end of a multi-hour test? If they took ADHD medications for most of their lives but stopped in order to meet the FAA rules, do these people ever manage to get the 1st Class certification? Does anyone know of a real person who managed to do it? Those Cog neuro tests look pretty hard and it seems like they present the questions really fast. How much of being a commercial pilot involves these skills on an ongoing basis? If you can make it past the AME and the schooling, are you then free and clear to just enjoy flying, or is testing and learning new material an ongoing part of the career?

 

[WDD]

If you have ADHD and with medication you have low / insufficient ability to use short term memory and thinking on your feet - you are not getting a 1st class and you are not going to be an airline pilot.

 

[Half Fast]

How much of being a commercial pilot involves these skills on an ongoing basis?

Probably they're not required on an ongoing basis for any level of pilot. BUT, those skills are required on those infrequent occasions when you and your passengers will die if you don't possess them. Therefore it's inappropriate to be any sort of pilot if you "really do have problems with short term memory, thinking on their feet."

If you can make it past the AME and the schooling, are you then free and clear to just enjoy flying, or is testing and learning new material an ongoing part of the career?

Testing and learning new material is part of life, let alone being a pilot, but to answer your question - yes, testing and learning new material is an ongoing part of the career, and it's an ongoing part of just being a pilot whether or not for a career.

 

[TCABM]

… If they took ADHD medications for most of their lives but stopped in order to meet the FAA rules…

Unless medically indicated, that may be considered untreated disease by the FAA which could make it worse.

Health first. Then medical history certification. Not everyone’s medical history is certifiable by the FAA.

 

[BulldogBoy]

"If you have ADHD and with medication you have low / insufficient ability to use short term memory and thinking on your feet - you are not getting a 1st class and you are not going to be an airline pilot."
This is what I would have thought. But now that I look at the forms that you are required to submit, there's nothing that would require you to disclose any of this proactively, so long as it's been three years since you were prescribed ADHD medication. If you can keep quiet during the AME exam and not give away the fact that you've got an underlying mental speed problem and your history, the doctor isn't required to actually test you to see if you're sharp enough or fast enough. It seems that the FAA assumes you're good enough mentally to pass unless you tell them otherwise. The AME doesn't get to see your entire medical and school record, much less your insurance claims for medications, for anything that happened more than 36 months earlier, right?

 

[Half Fast]

Is your goal to become a new episode of “Air Disasters” or something similar? This isn’t about getting around an AME and it isn’t a game. Lack of mental agility and memory can kill you, kill your passengers, and kill people on the ground.

I get the impression that you don’t really grasp that harsh reality.

 

[flyingron]

"But now that I look at the forms that you are required to submit, there's nothing that would require you to disclose any of this proactively, so long as it's been three years since you were prescribed ADHD medication.

Question 18m. Keeping quiet and answering NO to that question is a federal crime.

 

[RussS]

"If you have ADHD and with medication you have low / insufficient ability to use short term memory and thinking on your feet - you are not getting a 1st class and you are not going to be an airline pilot."
This is what I would have thought. But now that I look at the forms that you are required to submit, there's nothing that would require you to disclose any of this proactively, so long as it's been three years since you were prescribed ADHD medication. If you can keep quiet during the AME exam and not give away the fact that you've got an underlying mental speed problem and your history, the doctor isn't required to actually test you to see if you're sharp enough or fast enough. It seems that the FAA assumes you're good enough mentally to pass unless you tell them otherwise. The AME doesn't get to see your entire medical and school record, much less your insurance claims for medications, for anything that happened more than 36 months earlier, right?

with that logic, why even bother with the license. You can fly all day to your hearts content. Forget all that pesky training. It’s not like you can get pulled over in the air. Who would ever know ‍

the medical certification process is often unjust and definitely broken…that doesn’t mean you just completely circumvent the system. I does have a valid purpose.

 

[skywalker09]

I would like to add that the nerocog is EASY! If you fail, you have deficiencies and should not be flying planes.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

or who get tired before the end of a multi-hour test?

If you think piloting doesn't involve the ability to stay focused through a multi-hour test, you don't understand a lot of what piloting involves.

Hours of routine tasks waiting for moments of extreme focus...

 

[Baked Potato]

Sometimes I think these new accounts are undercover FAA employees who are testing the forum population to see if they encourage lying on medical applications. What kind of actual person would think that issues with "short term memory, thinking on their feet... understanding directions... or getting tired before the end of a multi-hour test" would not be an issue with someone piloting an airplane?

 

[Half Fast]

What kind of actual person would think that issues with "short term memory, thinking on their feet... understanding directions... or getting tired before the end of a multi-hour test" would not be an issue with someone piloting an airplane?

An FAA employee, of course!!

I think you nailed it...

 

[TCABM]

…If you can keep quiet during the AME exam and not give away the fact that you've got an underlying mental speed problem and your history…

So, you’re desiring to falsify a federal form by omitting reportable history, then lie to a federal agent (the AME is the FAA’s delegate) if they ask “is there anything else not in the form that we need to discuss?”.

Don’t turn a medical problem into a legal problem.

 

[Half Fast]

Y’know, postings like this on an Internet forum that has AMEs and FAA employees among the members might cause one to question the OP’s ADM skills...

 

[BulldogBoy]

I would hope that the system is set up to keep out people from aviation who aren't able to function at a high enough level without meds, but I've not seen much that reassures me. To be clear, my view is that the FAA doesn't do nearly enough to screen people before they enter this field. It seems like they do the exact opposite: They let anybody enter unless they absolutely have to check the box on the FAA-8000 form for very specific medical problems. Why doesn't the FAA require the Cog neuro testing for everyone in order to demonstrate that they'd be safe piloting a plane full of passengers? If you go to the parent blogs or Facebook pages on aviation careers, you will see that people discourage kids from volunteering medical info on the form that is not explicitly asked for. And the FAA's form is so badly written that just about anybody could claim that they in good faith didn't believe that their medical issue needed to be reported. I've even seen parents argue that ADHD is a learning disability, not a medical disorder, so you shouldn't report it. For many kids, they're diagnosed through their school system, so none of this even shows up in their medical records other than in their prescription history, which also isn't something they proactively have to provide for the AME's review. Lots of people never get a formal screening for ADHD but the doc will still write a Rx for them. These people later can claim that they were never diagnosed, so therefore they don't feel they need to report it.

 

[BulldogBoy]

For the record, I would never let my own children pursue an aviation career or even do it as a hobby if they had a medical history or ongoing challenges like what I've described.

 

[TCABM]

For the record, I would never let my own children pursue an aviation career or even do it as a hobby if they had a medical history or ongoing challenges like what I've described.

What’s your purpose coming here?

 

[SkyChaser]

What’s your purpose coming here?

He's an FAA dude, remember?

 

[Half Fast]

For the record, I would never let my own children pursue an aviation career or even do it as a hobby if they had a medical history or ongoing challenges like what I've described.

For the record, you have been discussing how to avoid disclosing a potentially disqualifying condition when it involves feloniously falsifying a federal form.

 

[Dry Creek]

with that logic, why even bother with the license. You can fly all day to your hearts content. Forget all that pesky training.

This is surprisingly true for part 103.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

I would hope that the system is set up to keep out people from aviation who aren't able to function at a high enough level without meds, but I've not seen much that reassures me. To be clear, my view is that the FAA doesn't do nearly enough to screen people before they enter this field. It seems like they do the exact opposite: They let anybody enter unless they absolutely have to check the box on the FAA-8000 form for very specific medical problems. Why doesn't the FAA require the Cog neuro testing for everyone in order to demonstrate that they'd be safe piloting a plane full of passengers? If you go to the parent blogs or Facebook pages on aviation careers, you will see that people discourage kids from volunteering medical info on the form that is not explicitly asked for. And the FAA's form is so badly written that just about anybody could claim that they in good faith didn't believe that their medical issue needed to be reported. I've even seen parents argue that ADHD is a learning disability, not a medical disorder, so you shouldn't report it. For many kids, they're diagnosed through their school system, so none of this even shows up in their medical records other than in their prescription history, which also isn't something they proactively have to provide for the AME's review. Lots of people never get a formal screening for ADHD but the doc will still write a Rx for them. These people later can claim that they were never diagnosed, so therefore they don't feel they need to report it.

Yeah ... have the gov't check whether someone is mentally able to safely fly a plane. Let me guess what will happen: thousands who are mentally able to safely fly a plane will be DQ'd. Yay.

 

[Dana]

...my view is that the FAA doesn't do nearly enough to screen people before they enter this field. It seems like they do the exact opposite: They let anybody enter unless they absolutely have to check the box on the FAA-8000 form for very specific medical problems. Why doesn't the FAA require the Cog neuro testing for everyone in order to demonstrate that they'd be safe piloting a plane full of passengers?

Yeah, it's not like airline travel is the safest form of travel in the history of mankind or anything...

 

[bbchien]

The agency’s “package brain performance” evaluation requires that the candidate outperform the bottom 15th percentile of known pilots of like decile age. If the candidate can do that, and at a time he has a negative urine, then he can get a special issue, and then it’s up to the operational guys to sort it out: CFIs, DPEs, Sim Captains……and some DO WASHOUT. The docs routinely monitor the training reports for six years after the initial issue.

IF a young recruit fails a line check it’s a big bad “re-evaluate me” deal.

…but there are any other things that can affect attentional efficiency: sleep, alcohol, meds, depression….to name a few.

Very little credence is given to what the PCPs say. What they contribute is documentation of the OTHER relevant conditions, as they really don’t have sufficient training to be expert: What happens in a CVLT or a PASAT…NO CLUE……. All is to say, “Johnny might really have it, but we just don’t know until the evaluation is done”.

 

[Chris Charanza]

The agency’s “package brain performance” evaluation requires that the candidate outperform the bottom 15th percentile of known pilots of like decile age. If the candidate can do that, and at a time he has a negative urine, then he can get a special issue, and then it’s up to the operational guys to sort it out: CFIs, DPEs, Sim Captains……and some DO WASHOUT. The docs routinely monitor the training reports for six years after the initial issue.

IF a young recruit fails a line check it’s a big bad “re-evaluate me” deal.

…but there are any other things that can affect attentional efficiency: sleep, alcohol, meds, depression….to name a few.

Very little credence is given to what the PCPs say. What they contribute is documentation of the OTHER relevant conditions, as they really don’t have sufficient training to be expert: What happens in a CVLT or a PASAT…NO CLUE……. All is to say, “Johnny might really have it, but we just don’t know until the evaluation is done”.

Now I'm curious as to if all medical certificates issued after the required cognitive testing for ADHD are supposed to be special issuance medicals or if it goes on a case by case basis. On my SI it is for anxiety & sleep apnea as far as ongoing reports when I renew but the only thing it says about ADHD is that if i have symptoms to ground myself (or something like that). Although I will say I was way above the bottom 15th percentile and it was noted that no further testing is required, so I don't know if that plays into it or not. Also of note is that the neuropsychologist who did my testing subscribes to the thought that you can be dealing with ADD/ADHD as a child but that you can outgrow it or as he said the part of the brain that controls all that may have developed a little later than other parts of the brain (or something like that)

 

[bbchien]

Now I'm curious as to if all medical certificates issued after the required cognitive testing for ADHD are supposed to be special issuance medicals or if it goes on a case by case basis. On my SI it is for anxiety & sleep apnea as far as ongoing reports when I renew but the only thing it says about ADHD is that if i have symptoms to ground myself (or something like that). Although I will say I was way above the bottom 15th percentile and it was noted that no further testing is required, so I don't know if that plays into it or not. Also of note is that the neuropsychologist who did my testing subscribes to the thought that you can be dealing with ADD/ADHD as a child but that you can outgrow it or as he said the part of the brain that controls all that may have developed a little later than other parts of the brain (or something like that)

It depends both, on how solid the candidate scores,
and the time-distance since exposure to meds.....

 

[Chris Charanza]

It depends both, on how solid the candidate scores,
and the time-distance since exposure to meds.....

In my particular case I was 120 days off medication and scored in the 87th percentile so maybe that's why I don't have the SI for that if those two are factors then it makes sense.