1965 C-150 Pre-Buy Result

Except for friends, the $300 PB Survey will not be the same as a $2000 one.

The problem with me is they all start with , “ How much for a PB?”.

The $$ dictates how much time the Tech will provide and thus the scope though.

Lately I will only do them only if the Buyer is present so I can ask “ Anything else

you want me to check?” Too many times folks have believed that if concerns were

not discovered during the Survey it is a guarantee that it’s a great buy. I’ll sue

if it isn’t .


A recent one came with the stipulation that the aircraft could only be in the

Sellers shop for only one workday. The Buyer was present and another Tech

assisted and all worked out well.


My thought is the biggest problem folks don’t really understand the process.

A simple question like “ Any corrosion?” Could result in a ridiculous amount of

hours if they expect a simple answer like “No!”
 
pfarber said:
A pre-buy is not an inspection or maintenance so where is the liability? An MX doing a pre-buy should have some boilerplate stating that the pre-buy is not a statement of airworthiness and is a cursory visual inspection.

Granted you can always be sued for anything, but blaming a pre-buy for an issue is tenuous. Again, the MX should have a signed agreement of indemnity above all else.
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If you open an inspection panel that is not meant for pilot pre-flight purposes, the work is technically considered maintenance and requires a maintenance release. It doesn't always happen.
 
I've always shied away from Pre-buys. The buyer wants you to take the airplane completely apart for $100, and the owner doesn't want you closer than 10 feet. :fingerwag:
 
Dan Thomas said:
If the mechanic saw cracks and did not note them, what is the buyer going to do or say when the next mechanic points out that those skins need replacing? That's not cheap, and it might have affected his decision to buy the airplane. What would be your reaction of you paid $500 or $1000 for a prebuy and the inspecting mechanic did not tell you that there were serious cracks in the control surface skins? Or that some control cables were frayed? Or that the spar had terrible corrosion on it?

So, then, what is the point of a prebuy if serious flaws are seen but not pointed out? Why spend the money on the prebuy in the first place? Why not just buy the airplane and let the first annual find all that expensive stuff?

And a prebuy should not be a "cursory inspection." The expensive stuff is usually hidden and it takes time to open things up and get a good look. A casual lookover is going to miss much of importance.
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I had a prebuy done by someone who was in a position to know better, and yet thing$ were mi$$ed. You do the best you can with the information you have at the time (as it turns out, not much as a first-time buyer...), but at the end of the day, you pay your money and take your chances.
 
GeorgeC said:
I had a prebuy done by someone who was in a position to know better, and yet thing$ were mi$$ed. You do the best you can with the information you have at the time (as it turns out, not much as a first-time buyer...), but at the end of the day, you pay your money and take your chances.
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Yes, there are people that don't do what they're being paid to do, but the bigger problem is that prebuys are expensive, and as the fleet ages the mechanic has to dig ever deeper to make sure that ugly stuff isn't happening. That takes time, and time costs money.

Too many prospective buyers want a thorough prebuy for $100 or $300 or something. Yet their first year's insurance will cost many times that. They're willing to pay big bucks to the insurance company to cover the fairly remote possibility of accidental damage, but not to a mechanic to make sure there isn't something that will cause a fatal accident, or maybe just makes the airplane worthless due to severe corrosion or something.

SMH.
 
In a perfect world the only discrepancies discovered would have occurred since the last Inspection. That is very seldom true though.

With an Annual the mechanic is accountable for Airworthiness.
With a PB Survey the “ is it a good financial deal” comes into the picture. Runs in paint and torn faded upholstery has an impact here.

If you want the Tech to stand behind their examination on both issues then maybe the starting price should be double the cost of the typical Annual Inspection. Of course servicing, repairs and further
investigation are all extra charge items. Travel time and expenses are
very likely in the picture as well. There are also times that it may be necessary to rent a hangar to do the Survey.

My recommendation is to always involve the person who will be doing
future Inspections on the aircraft. Some examples:

ALL “paperwork” such as AD’s , 337’s should be checked by the A & P
PRIOR to any traveling or physical inspection. Frequency of Annuals and types of repairs can get insight into how the aircraft was maintained . This weeds out a lot of projects.

Have the current Owner send pics of any items that will have a financial impact. If declared up front the Buyer cannot want $$
subtracted later. Otherwise if the Survey shows up concerns the Buyer will
expect a $$ adjustment.

This can get quite complex and Sellers can readily refuse in todays market. Recently I had Sellers refuse to allow any peeking during their “Annual” and would not furnish any copies of paper work.
 
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Magman said:
In a perfect world the only discrepancies discovered would have occurred since the last Inspection. That is very seldom true though.

With an Annual the mechanic is accountable for Airworthiness.
With a PB Survey the “ is it a good financial deal” comes into the picture. Runs in paint and torn faded upholstery has an impact here.
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I disagree. A pre-buy is also about airworthiness and hidden issues. Not about if the plane is a good deal.

And in a perfect world, we could accept an airplance being in annual as proof of being in good condition and pre-buy would not be a thing,
 
My intent was Airworthiness AND Investment were both involved in a PB.

Faded paint or upholstery not matching would not be an issue during an

Annual as would a cowl or fairing being a different color.

The Annual Inspection is sort of a “ frozen in time “ thing.

Generally there are concerns found that do not require IMMEDIATE

attention. Hoses due in 6 months or AD’s due in 40 hours due not have to

be addressed at this Annual. That’s up to the Owner to schedule.

Alerting the Owner is often appreciated though.


I once signed an Annual where the IO-360 had to have the Case split

in 10 hrs and the Prop AD done in 30 days. It was legal at the time of

Inspection. Both Buyer and Seller were aware of the situation.

The Records reflected this.
 
My point is, the A&P or IA is not making a judgement on value. Paint and interior are easily seen and evaluated by the buyer. The pre-buy inspection is about airworthiness and things that are not accessible to the buyer to evaluate.

This does not mean the person doing the pre-buy may not make a casual comment that the plane is a good buy or not, but that is not what the pre-buy is about.
 
Oh my gawd oh my gawd oh my gawd.

Grease looks old? Noooo!

Baffling looks corroded? Shame on the owner for not purchasing the nice new $2k option…

I get the flaps and ailerons may be cracked. Faeth, BAS, or Texas air salvage may have a few dozen In their pocket.

I remember most members at a flying club I once belonged to would chuckle at all the 150’s and 152’s on the ramp that got no love and were selling for peanuts, “underpowered” as they may have been.

I have a friend that has been selling airplanes to flight schools for a looooong time. He shared that most 152’s have already been exported

I think when this thread began, the cheapest 150’s in the market were ummmm 35ish? Try touching a decent one for Under 50 now, and that’s before the NPRM closes and allows 150’s as a sport pilot plane. I have a couple of 150’s getting a new interior and paint along with avionics…

Heck, my 0 time 172M reassembled and newly painted should met me a nice house downpayment or a house in some places…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
IMHO The Tech should not make a comment on what the aircraft is worth.

Nor should there be a recommendation to buy. Doing so leads to liability as

far as I’m concerned. Often the Buyer is not present to actually see

the aircraft. The A &P should write up all finding and allow the Buyer

to make the call. Pix and written estimates of repairs needed is a good

idea as well.


Related is whether the Tech should fly the aircraft with the Seller?

What items would be evaluated?
 
JAWS said:
If you open an inspection panel that is not meant for pilot pre-flight purposes, the work is technically considered maintenance and requires a maintenance release. It doesn't always happen.
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Got a CFR reference for that?

And even if true, how would I know which panels are “not meant for pre-flight purposes?” I believe I’m free to make my pre-flight inspection as thorough as I choose, and the panels aren’t labeled.
 
Just a few years ago I wouldn't have even bothered with a prebuy on something as cheap as a 150. Now people aren't doing prebuys because the plane will get sold out from under them while waiting for the A&P to show up. We sold one last summer and the buyer didn't even look at the logbooks or ask to fly it.
 
Pinecone said:
I disagree. A pre-buy is also about airworthiness and hidden issues. Not about if the plane is a good deal.
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Problem is there is no official definition of what a ‘pre-buy’ is. Consequently, it’s whatever the buyer WANTS it to be.

In my own acquisitions of airplanes, I’ve done it a little differently every single time.

I’ve done a local A&P shop ‘pre-buy’ using their own checklist. I’ve done a full blown annual inspection as a pre buy. I’ve done a very thorough type-expert inspection and I’ve even done a prebuy myself which was essentially a document review and a walk around of a newly restored (might as well been brand new) airplane.
 
Half Fast said:
Got a CFR reference for that?

And even if true, how would I know which panels are “not meant for pre-flight purposes?” I believe I’m free to make my pre-flight inspection as thorough as I choose, and the panels aren’t labeled.
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I think JAWS is a Canadian, and in Canadian Law, under Elementary Maintenance, the owner is permitted to remove non-structural panels.

Standard 625 Appendix A: Elementary Work - Canadian Aviation Regulations (CARs)​

Elementary Work Task Listings

(21) opening and closing of non-structural access panels;

Non-structural access panels have three or four screws. Structural panels will have six or more.
 
Dan Thomas said:
I think JAWS is a Canadian, and in Canadian Law, under Elementary Maintenance, the owner is permitted to remove non-structural panels.

Standard 625 Appendix A: Elementary Work - Canadian Aviation Regulations (CARs)​

Elementary Work Task Listings

(21) opening and closing of non-structural access panels;

Non-structural access panels have three or four screws. Structural panels will have six or more.
Click to expand...


Ah, thanks. Even on Pilots of America, I sometimes forget that Canadians think they’re Americans, too. :D
 
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