182 Prop Strike and Hard Landing

stagecoachco

stagecoachco

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
516
Location
Steamboat Springs, CO
Display Name
Display name:
Tony B
The 182 that our club owns was landed hard on the nose wheel last night. The pilot was doing landings to get night current again. He was nose low enough to hit the prop on the runway. Mechanic was able to dress out the damage on the prop and keep the prop within specs, so he is saying no engine tear down inspection per the Lycoming AD. The fire wall and two "stiffeners" (my word, not sure what you call them, they are white hat shaped extrusions that run diagonally down the firewall) are buckled. The nose gear mount has pulled away from the firewall at the top of the mount as well. Looks like the plane is going to be down for a while. Total bummer to have my favorite plane down for the summer, but guess that is one of the things that comes with club membership. See pics below;


 
oooh the consequences of the black hole. Well hopefully they get her back up and running soon. Fairly easy fixes, and not uncommon.
 
Haegon said:
Ahh bummer! How do clubs generally handle situations like this?
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Our Bylaws state that if the accident is your fault you pay the insurance deductible. I think our deductible is 2AMUs. We just went through this last August when our T182R was gear-upped.
 
I thought a prop strike always meant engine tear down?

thanks
 
signu127 said:
I thought a prop strike always meant engine tear down?

thanks
Click to expand...

I did too, but the mechanic said that according the to Lycoming AD that it was not necessary in this case. Attached is the AD. The mechanic said that the prop required "minor dressing" according to McCauley, and that did not trigger the AD.
 

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stagecoachco said:
I did too, but the mechanic said that according the to Lycoming AD that it was not necessary in this case. Attached is the AD. The mechanic said that the prop required "minor dressing" according to McCauley, and that did not trigger the AD.
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I'm very surprised to hear that, but that's why I'm not an IA. :dunno:
 
BTW, Pilot is claiming a downdraft. Flight took place about 9:30 pm MDT(03:30 Zulu). Below are the METARs surrounding that time period.

KSBS 240435Z AUTO 00000KT 10SM CLR 19/M07 A3023 RMK AO1 T01891068
KSBS 240415Z AUTO 00000KT 10SM CLR 19/M06 A3023 RMK AO1 T01931061
KSBS 240355Z AUTO 00000KT 10SM CLR 20/M04 A3023 RMK AO1 T02011038
KSBS 240335Z AUTO 00000KT 10SM CLR 20/M03 A3022 RMK AO1 T02011029
KSBS 240315Z AUTO 10004KT 10SM CLR 22/M07 A3021 RMK AO1 T02221073
KSBS 240255Z AUTO 10006KT 10SM CLR 22/00 A3021 RMK AO1 T02191003
KSBS 240235Z AUTO 00000KT 10SM CLR 25/M06 A3020 RMK AO1 T02501064
KSBS 240215Z AUTO 00000KT 10SM CLR 26/M08 A3019 RMK AO1 T02641076
 
I guess this means he is not night current yet?
 
Good thing that the prop at least will... ... ... (wait for it...) ...

BUFF RIGHT OUT!

:D :D :D

Seriously though, sorry your plane is down but it could have been much worse.
 
This kinda thing is why leaseback just doesn't sound like a good thing.

I was in Hayden and Craig last night. Winds didn't seem that bad?

Does this pilot have many hours?
 
I would bet the prop and engine will get sent off. See MPC26-02 Owner/Operator Manual, AC43.13-1B and AC20-37E. I would not fly it again if it gets "minor blending". That is what insurance is for. That is also why one should think about taking an instructor up when not current. $40/hr vs $30,000+.

Any McCauley propeller experiencing a Blade Strike must be removed from the aircraft and completely overhauled by an FAA approved propeller repair station in accordance with the applicable overhaul manual.

D. Blade Shortening.
(1) Propeller tip damage will sometimes lead field maintenance personnel to consider removing
damaged material from the blade tips. However, propellers are certified to the aircraft engine and airframe resonant frequency by being manufactured with a particular diameter to minimize vibration. Shortening of the blades without reference to approved data could create an unairworthy condition. Refer to the airplane type certificate data sheet, aircraft specification sheet, or supplemental type certificate data sheet as applicable, for the allowable propeller diameter for each propeller installation.
(2) With certain limitations, specific minor repairs may be accomplished.
(a) If the blade tip has been damaged and the removal of the damaged area would result in
shortening of the propeller blade(s), the propeller shall be taken to an FAA approved Part
145 Propeller Repair Station or international equivalent, for propeller blade repair.
(b) When conditions indicate, inspect the blade tips for evidence of shortening and, if necessary, measure the propeller diameter to determine if an unauthorized repair has
altered it.
 
ronnieh said:
I guess this means he is not night current yet?
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Actually prop strike happened on his third landing, so he actually is current :lol:

Jthamilton said:
This kinda thing is why leaseback just doesn't sound like a good thing.

I was in Hayden and Craig last night. Winds didn't seem that bad?

Does this pilot have many hours?
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Yea, probably not the best idea to do a leaseback on your beautiful plane! He just got his license in December. The club requires 125 hours to get into the 182, so he has at least that many (in his logbook anyway...)
 
Sounds like you need a second opinion on what needs to be done to the plane.
 
That does not look like something minor dressing will be able to fix.
 
stagecoachco said:
I did too, but the mechanic said that according the to Lycoming AD that it was not necessary in this case. Attached is the AD. The mechanic said that the prop required "minor dressing" according to McCauley, and that did not trigger the AD.
Click to expand...


The AD refers to the service bulletin that Tony posted. It gets convoluted at times.
 
RV10flyer said:
I would bet the prop and engine will get sent off. See MPC26-02 Owner/Operator Manual, AC43.13-1B and AC20-37E. I would not fly it again if it gets "minor blending". That is what insurance is for. That is also why one should think about taking an instructor up when not current. $40/hr vs $30,000+.

Any McCauley propeller experiencing a Blade Strike must be removed from the aircraft and completely overhauled by an FAA approved propeller repair station in accordance with the applicable overhaul manual.

D. Blade Shortening.
(1) Propeller tip damage will sometimes lead field maintenance personnel to consider removing
damaged material from the blade tips. However, propellers are certified to the aircraft engine and airframe resonant frequency by being manufactured with a particular diameter to minimize vibration. Shortening of the blades without reference to approved data could create an unairworthy condition. Refer to the airplane type certificate data sheet, aircraft specification sheet, or supplemental type certificate data sheet as applicable, for the allowable propeller diameter for each propeller installation.
(2) With certain limitations, specific minor repairs may be accomplished.
(a) If the blade tip has been damaged and the removal of the damaged area would result in
shortening of the propeller blade(s), the propeller shall be taken to an FAA approved Part
145 Propeller Repair Station or international equivalent, for propeller blade repair.
(b) When conditions indicate, inspect the blade tips for evidence of shortening and, if necessary, measure the propeller diameter to determine if an unauthorized repair has
altered it.
Click to expand...


Wow, pretty interesting stuff. I am going to do a little more research tonight. I am only one member of the club, so by myself can't really affect what happens, but I can always try to convince others. Bottom line though is that I need to be able to trust the airplane over the mountains when good emergency landing spots are few and far between.
 
That is good news on the night currency. This way when the plane is fixed he is ready to go.
 
Haegon said:
Ahh bummer! How do clubs generally handle situations like this?
Click to expand...

Our club rules say that the member is responsible for the first $1000, our insurance covers the rest. So far (knock on wood) I haven't had to write a check. Now, another member did a few years ago after violating club rules, landed on a non-paved runway and had a prop strike on a new engine we had just had installed on one of our 172s. Ouch.
 
I'm of the opinion that once the insurance company get involved they will definitely want the engine torn down and inspected. The won't want the potential liability should the crank break later.

Prop should be evaluated and repaired by a certificated prop repair station.
 
If foreign object damage requires propeller removal for repairs other than minor dressing of the blades, the incident is considered a propeller strike and this also requires a complete engine disassembly/inspection. Being a CS prop, too many little hidden parts could have been damaged. I would not consider that a minor bump. The insurance company will want to be on the safe side too. A FP prop may have been a different story.
 
stagecoachco said:
Wow, pretty interesting stuff. I am going to do a little more research tonight. I am only one member of the club, so by myself can't really affect what happens, but I can always try to convince others. Bottom line though is that I need to be able to trust the airplane over the mountains when good emergency landing spots are few and far between.
Click to expand...

It is a service bulletin not required to be complied with in part 91, is your club a part 91 op?

http://www.mccauley.textron.com/sb176E.pdf

What you are really talking about

Quote the SB.

B. Blade Strike of Rotating Propeller:
"Blade Strike" , sometimes referred to as "Ground Strike" is defined as any impact or suspected impact of the rotating propeller upon such items as, but not limited to, the ground, tow bars, landing lights, carts, snow banks, hedges, etc. Please note that the above definition is intended for use as an example only. Determination as to whether or not a blade strike actually occurred is ultimately the responsibility of the aircraft operator.

And a quote from the Lycoming AD on prop strikes.
Definition of Propeller Strike

(i) For the purposes of this AD, a propeller strike is defined as follows:

(1) Any incident, whether or not the engine is operating, that requires repair to the propeller other than minor dressing of the blades.

(2) Any incident during engine operation in which the propeller impacts a solid object that causes a drop in revolutions per minute (RPM) and also requires structural repair of the propeller (incidents requiring only paint touch-up are not included). This is not restricted to propeller strikes against the ground.

This will require more than paint.
 
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Haegon said:
Ahh bummer! How do clubs generally handle situations like this?
Click to expand...

No such thing as generally. Some clubs the member is liable for the deductible, some clubs the member is liable for a value higher than the deductable. Sounds kinda severe, but if you bash a plane, the plane isn't available for other members, insurance rates increase for all the members, and there are still costs associated with the plane while down for repairs.
 
Skylane81E said:
So, simple dressing to clean up the prop?
Click to expand...

Does it require a structural repair of the prop? IOWs did it require dressing of the blade tip? more than just a paint touch up?

in accordance to the Lycoming AD if they blended a scratch the engine is due for compliance with the AD.
 
RV10flyer said:
If foreign object damage requires propeller removal for repairs other than minor dressing of the blades, the incident is considered a propeller strike and this also requires a complete engine disassembly/inspection. Being a CS prop, too many little hidden parts could have been damaged. I would not consider that a minor bump. The insurance company will want to be on the safe side too. A FP prop may have been a different story.
Click to expand...

Not quite true Wayne, the Lycoming AD does not require a total tear down. The Continental tear down is on a SB and not required in part 91.
 
Mh, it would seem unusual to prang a plane hard enough to bend the firewall yet hit the prop only slight enough to be fixable with just some dressing. 'Dressing' is after you pick up a little bit of gravel, not after you pick up the whole runway.

Why would you not want to have the engine torn down on insurance money (giving you the opportunity to fix wear items like a spalled lifter or cam on your dime). The plane will be in the shop for a while until the structural damage is fixed anyway.
 
Ghery said:
Our club rules say that the member is responsible for the first $1000, our insurance covers the rest. So far (knock on wood) I haven't had to write a check. Now, another member did a few years ago after violating club rules, landed on a non-paved runway and had a prop strike on a new engine we had just had installed on one of our 172s. Ouch.
Click to expand...

Landing on a non paved runway should not result in a prop strike. He just got caught because of a poor landing technique.
 
Mike Busch says that a teardown of the engine is a good thing. Insurance will probably pay for it. Not only does it give you confidence that the engine is safe to fly, it will also provide a cheap opportunity to repair anything else that is found in the engine that needs repair. It's a silver lining on the cloud that's so nice that you should almost feel good that there was a prop strike.

http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/193027-1.html

excerpt:
Legalities aside, the engine experts I've talked to all feel that doing a teardown after any flavor of prop strike is absolutely essential for safety. And the insurance underwriters I've consulted all say that your insurance will pay for the teardown without hesitation. To my way of thinking, this makes the decision a no-brainer: Just do it!
 
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NoHeat said:
To my way of thinking, this makes the decision a no-brainer: Just do it!
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This might change your thinking. the insurance companies pro-rate the cost, your engine is high time, they may pay nothing.

With my Fairchild incident, the insurance company insisted that the Warner would be torn down and inspected, it had very few hours after rebuild, that is what totaled the aircraft. not the damage that was done to the aircraft.
 
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Tom-D said:
What ever,,, keep it in mind the insurance company won't pay every thing.
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Thanks for explaining your experience. It is different from that of the 182 owner quoted in Busch's story -- he even got an IRAN of his magnetos paid by insurance during his tear down. He was very happy about the experience. Maybe the insurance co makes a difference?
 
NoHeat said:
Thanks for explaining your experience. It is different from that of the 182 owner quoted in Busch's story -- he even got an IRAN of his magnetos paid by insurance during his tear down. He was very happy about the experience. Maybe the insurance co makes a difference?
Click to expand...

When dealing with the insurance company it is all up to the adjuster settling your claim.
 
The insurance would typically pay for the teardown labor, the gaskets, the nondestructive testing of the parts and if necessary a new crank if it is found to be bent. They are not obligated to pay for any wear items discovered at the time of a teardown.

Usually it is a good deal for the owner. I know someone who had a higher time engine when the mechanic taxied it into the bollards that protect the fuel pump. Insurance paid teardown labor and a new crank and he paid the price difference to a major overhaul.

I dont understand why the mechanic in this case is trying to minimize the damage.
 
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