182 Panel Upgrade

[wrighthenry]

This is the current panel in my 182H. I have two other partners and we are in the process of obtaining our IR. The plane as equipped is a pretty poor IFR machine. The garmin 250xl is vfr only and we have no DME. We only have one glideslope also. The autopilot has altitude hold but the Navomatic 300 is just a wing leveler that works sometimes. So we have been kicking around some ideas for a panel upgrade.

Our current thought is adding a IFD-440 and 2 G5 to replace the DG and the attitude indicator. Then we are looking at adding one of the new low cost autopilots. Looks like the Trio will be first to market but we are also
Looking at TruTrak and the Garmin 500.

Thoughts on this set up? Will the G5 talk to the 440? Will the stratus ESG display traffic on the 440 and the avidyne 1000 app? Any other suggestions?

We have been quoted $11,500 to install the 440 (or the garmin 650 if we went that route). The autopilot looks to be between $7-10k and the two G5 should be around $6k installed. We are looking to stay right around the $20-25k number. Any better use for those funds?


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[GeorgeC]

I don't think the Stratus can display traffic/wx on a navigator. My fantasy league upgrade for the club 182 I fly was a 345 and swapping our 430W for a 530W, but we ended up with a Stratus ESGi.

If you're going G5 I'd stick with the 650/500.

How do you like the stick-on bug? I need a couple of those.

 

[JimNtexas]

I'd hesitate to have a mixed marriage between Garmin and Avidyne.

 

[wrighthenry]

I'd hesitate to have a mixed marriage between Garmin and Avidyne.

That's what I'm worried about most. If staying with Avidyne is the Dynon d10a the best choice?


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[lancie00]

I don't know anything about what you want to install but don't forget ADS-B.

 

[wrighthenry]

I don't know anything about what you want to install but don't forget ADS-B.

The stratus esg takes care of ads-b. We be been flying with it for about 6 months. It's awesome


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[CMongoose]

I wouldn't discount the Aspen if the price comes down, I think their functionality is a little better than the Garmin. I'm especially curious that TruTrak and Trio are not mentioned as compatible autopilots in today's announcement about the G5.

I balked at the cost of a 440 or a 650 and ended up installing a refurbished 480 instead. I'm very happy with it, and it was significantly cheaper to both acquire and install. There are plenty of 430 and 530s out there now too.

 

[denverpilot]

We only have one glideslope also.

...

Our current thought is adding a IFD-440 and 2 G5 to replace the DG and the attitude indicator.

Not seeing the problem with only one glideslope... oh, wait, I think what you're saying is you don't have an OBS that'll work with a GPS? Yeah, you guys kinda stole the spot for that with the engine monitor. Can the engine monitor be moved to the other side?

I'm with @JimNtexas -- I wouldn't mix. That sounds like a way to end up with an interoperability headache. But...

If you want the ADS-B IN stuff to display somewhere from that Stratus... well, I dunno... does it display on that giant Garmin thing at the bottom today? (I kinda doubt it... what is that, one of their portables in a removable panel mount? Maybe with a GTN in the top there, that whole thing could go away, and the engine monitor installed on a nice flat panel there in the center if you don't want to hack up that nice panel on the right?)

I assume it displays ADS-B IN for you guys today on whatever iPad you have locked in that yoke mount. Nothing really wrong with that, as long as you have ship's power, I guess. I doubt you're going to swap out the Stratus for a GTX-345 so stuff will show up on a Garmin GPS screen... but you could...

I'm especially curious that TruTrak and Trio are not mentioned as compatible autopilots in today's announcement about the G5.

I'm not. Are you really, or just being sarcastic? Garmin (well, maybe until today) hasn't really had much of a track record of playing nicely with others, other than outputting NEMA GPS data. Maybe the world has suddenly changed with the A/P announcement, but kinda doubt it...

 

[wrighthenry]

I wouldn't discount the Aspen if the price comes down, I think their functionality is a little better than the Garmin. I'm especially curious that TruTrak and Trio are not mentioned as compatible autopilots in today's announcement about the G5.

I balked at the cost of a 440 or a 650 and ended up installing a refurbished 480 instead. I'm very happy with it, and it was significantly cheaper to both acquire and install. There are plenty of 430 and 530s out there now too.

We were quoted $10k to install a 430w by our avionics shop. The 650/440 was quoted at $11.5k. For that difference it seems silly to buy the old technology.


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[wrighthenry]

We haven't given thought to the Aspen. I was under the impression it was much more expensive and was a difficult install?


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[Ravioli]

Don't change a thing. Get those IFR ratings with a whole lot of twisting and tuning. You'll be better for it.

Then when you are hard core "old school" IFR pilots you can get the fancy fun stuff (if you still want it).

I do know people that got their IR in a single Nav/com. I trust them more than the elctro-junkies.

 

[CC268]

wow that seems like a pretty nice panel as is.

 

[dmspilot]

wow that seems like a pretty nice panel as is.

With only one Nav receiver, and with neither DME nor IFR GPS, it's really not practical for IFR.

 

[CC268]

With only one Nav receiver, and with neither DME nor IFR GPS, it's really not practical for IFR.

Ah I guess I wasn't paying attention to only one nav receiver.

 

[dmspilot]

Ah I guess I wasn't paying attention to only one nav receiver.

Yeah he said only one glideslope which initially seemed to be an odd thing to complain about until you looked closer and realized he really meant only one Nav.

 

[Caramon13]

With only one Nav receiver, and with neither DME nor IFR GPS, it's really not practical for IFR.

Whaaaa? Not practical for IFR? Why not? To truly get DME you have to add one to the panel. Adding a DME receiver to the panel is a huge waste of moola. You can simulate DME with an IFR GPS, sure but those have limits too.

Taking DME out with that panel he could do ILS/VOR/LOC approaches just fine. Those aren't practical approaches?

Remember @wrighthenry the more you add, the more the DPE can test you on.

 

[denverpilot]

wow that seems like a pretty nice panel as is.

I'd hit it... er, um, I mean, fly it.

 

[dmspilot]

Whaaaa? Not practical for IFR? Why not? To truly get DME you have to add one to the panel. Adding a DME receiver to the panel is a huge waste of moola. You can simulate DME with an IFR GPS, sure but those have limits too.

Taking DME out with that panel he could do ILS/VOR/LOC approaches just fine. Those aren't practical approaches?

Remember @wrighthenry the more you add, the more the DPE can test you on.

He doesn't have an IFR GPS. The ONLY thing he has that's IFR is ONE (1) VOR/LOC/GS receiver. How is that practical?

 

[denverpilot]

He doesn't have an IFR GPS. The ONLY thing he has that's IFR is ONE (1) VOR/LOC/GS receiver. How is that practical?

Crossing radials are fun that way. LOL.

The one time you don't spin the OBS to the inbound course of the ILS just for convenience to have it up there as a memory jogger... hahaha. Better leave it set for the crossing radial and have both frequencies (the ILS and the VOR) at the top of the notepad on your lap... haha.

 

[Caramon13]

He doesn't have an IFR GPS. The ONLY thing he has that's IFR is ONE (1) VOR/LOC/GS receiver. How is that practical?

Most medium to large airports have at least one of those approaches. You only need one receiver.

Now if you are flying out in the middle of nowhere with small airports then yeah I'd argue an IFR GPS would almost be required due to the lack of those type of approaches most likely.

Had this same argument with @denverpilot in another thread actually heh..and if you get an IFR GPS make sure it's a WAAS GPS, right @denverpilot ?

 

[dmspilot]

Most medium to large airports have at least one of those approaches. You only need one receiver.

I didn't say you NEEDED more than one. Have fun identifying airway intersections, IAFs, IFs, FAFs, stepdown fixes, etc. with one. Personally, I'm not into S&M, at least not while flying.

What I said was that it wasn't practical. How is having the absolute bare minimum that you need practical?

 

[denverpilot]

I didn't say you NEEDED more than one. Have fun identifying airway intersections, IAFs, IFs, FAFs, stepdown fixes, etc. with one. Personally, I'm not into S&M, at least not while flying.

@jesse liked to cover things up in training but I don't think he ever killed one of my OBSs. He did kill the DME once. But I've gone up and messed with other folks doing currency stuff with one OBS. It's a bear, but it can be done. Might as well practice it when the weather is CAVU and you're under the hood, than get to learn it inside a cloud someday when one of the King radios releases its magic smoke.

 

[Caramon13]

I didn't say you NEEDED more than one. Have fun identifying airway intersections, IAFs, IFs, FAFs, stepdown fixes, etc. with one. Personally, I'm not into S&M, at least not while flying.

Gotcha, yes I agree it's more difficult. When I was watching the King training videos for my instrument rating, Martha went through the process. I'd much rather have two as well, but meh..you don't REALLY need it.

This was my panel before I sold the plane, I added a second one in for the GPS.

 

[wrighthenry]

wow that seems like a pretty nice panel as is.

Thanks! We've put a lot of work into it. When we first bought it it was your typical black shotgun panel and bow tie yokes. Our Mechanic made the panel and We've spent a lot of time sourcing good used components. It's been a great VFR panel.


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[Ravioli]

He doesn't have an IFR GPS. The ONLY thing he has that's IFR is ONE (1) VOR/LOC/GS receiver. How is that practical?

It's really practical. He can learn to actually fly IFR with arguably the highest single pilot workload and then get an automatic transmission and some magenta line fluid after he knows what he's doing.

You must have started with a Super-computer and worked your way back to multiplication tables the way most "modern" pilots do.

 

[wrighthenry]

Yeah he said only one glideslope which initially seemed to be an odd thing to complain about until you looked closer and realized he really meant only one Nav.

Sorry yes that's what I meant. We are finding it less than ideal the further into training we are getting. Our instructor (high time full time instructor) has gotten pretty frustrated the further into training we have gotten. Without dme or IFR gps she thinks it's pretty impractical as well


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[Ravioli]

Without dme or IFR gps she thinks it's pretty impractical as well

Please define the term "Practical."

I mean really, you can throw G500 in that sucker for ~30k and be be "practically awesome" or you can get your ticket with your current panel without being "practically bankrupt."

Decisions, decisions, decisions. [wandering away with head in hand]

 

[dmspilot]

It's really practical. He can learn to actually fly IFR with arguably the highest single pilot workload and then get an automatic transmission and some magenta line fluid after he knows what he's doing.

I said it wasn't practical for IFR. I didn't say anything about training. You think anybody sane is going to fly around IFR with one radio (the VFR GPS/MFD might as well not be there). Give me a break. Your bravado should not enter into someone else's ADM.

 

[Ravioli]

I said it wasn't practical for IFR. I didn't say anything about training. You think anybody sane is going to fly around IFR with one radio (the VFR GPS/MFD might as well not be there). Give me a break. Your bravado should not enter into someone else's ADM.

So, those pesky DPE's are signing off insane people with poor ADM skills? Your techno-babble shouldn't spend other peoples money!

 

[Ryan F.]

Here are some thoughts. Your autopilot plays a role in this, but I don't know anything about it so I'll ignored it for the sake of discussion. If you're considering replacing the AP at some point, this gets pretty easy.

Biggest bang for the buck and future upgrade flexibility:

I'd stick a GTN650 in there to start. That gives you a WAAS GPS Navigator and a great foundation for the rest of the panel, and solves your DME issue. If you want to get another CDI, sure, but I'd wait on that; there's a better upgrade path (see below).

Fly that GTN650 for awhile. You'll like it.

When you're ready, add a G5 ADI. There's no real rush. Assuming your AP doesn't need it, ditch your old turn coordinator, keep your old vacuum ADI, move it down and to the left into the old TC hole, and place the G5 top and center. Awesome enhancement to safety.

Fly that and enjoy. Take your time. Again, you'll like it.

Now it's time to add the G5 HSI. For this reason I'd give up any thought of Brand B mfgrs such as Avidyne. You're going to want to stick with Garmin, in my view. The products work well together and will improve the residual value of the aircraft.

If you ultimately want to replace the AP, you can consider the new low-cost Garmin AP just announced, the GFC-500. Incidentally the C-172 and C-182 are among the first planned to appear in the AML. With your GTN 650 and dual G5s it'll be a natural fit.

 

[wrighthenry]

Here are some thoughts. Your autopilot plays a role in this, but I don't know anything about it so I'll ignored it for the sake of discussion. If you're considering replacing the AP at some point, this gets pretty easy.

Biggest bang for the buck and future upgrade flexibility:

I'd stick a GTN650 in there to start. That gives you a WAAS GPS Navigator and a great foundation for the rest of the panel, and solves your DME issue. If you want to get another CDI, sure, but I'd wait on that; there's a better upgrade path (see below).

Fly that GTN650 for awhile. You'll like it.

When you're ready, add a G5 ADI. There's no real rush. Assuming your AP doesn't need it, ditch your old turn coordinator, keep your old vacuum ADI, move it down and to the left into the old TC hole, and place the G5 top and center. Awesome enhancement to safety.

Fly that and enjoy. Take your time. Again, you'll like it.

Now it's time to add the G5 HSI. For this reason I'd give up any thought of Brand B mfgrs such as Avidyne. You're going to want to stick with Garmin, in my view. The products work well together and will improve the residual value of the aircraft.

If you ultimately want to replace the AP, you can consider the new low-cost Garmin AP just announced, the GFC-500. Incidentally the C-172 and C-182 are among the first planned to appear in the AML. With your GTN 650 and dual G5s it'll be a natural fit.

Thanks. Exactly the type of advice we are looking for.


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