182 down knoxville

Sad news. I'll be interested to hear more. I've made the flight from Knoxville to Atlanta and back over those mountains numerous times, a few in IMC at night, I'm always happy the big fan up front keeps spinning.

No mention of an instrument rating in the FAA records, but it may be fresh enough to not be updated.
 
There was a thin convective line running through that area yesterday. VFR does not seem like it would have been a good idea at all.

So sad for all those involved.
 
sad story....I couldn't imagine the weather was good for the flight.
 
I hate to harp on it, but flying serious cross country without an instrument rating and instrument capable plane is playing Russian Roulette with your pax. :(
 
RotorDude said:
I hate to harp on it, but flying serious cross country without an instrument rating and instrument capable plane is playing Russian Roulette with your pax. :(
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We really do not know whether weather was even a factor yet. It must be an absolute miracle that my family is still alive. I am a 350 hr VFR pilot, flying an IFR-equipped contraption that we built in our garage. Our 4-4.5 hr xc flights at 10.5-16.5 are not serious though. We have only filed a VFR flight plan once over-flying Canada. We do get flight following most trips, so maybe that gave us better odds.
 
The weather was total crap day before yesterday. If he went from JAX direct to TYS, he was definitely VFR over the top. Most of north GA, east TN and west NC were IFR to LIFR.
 
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Sad day for the family. May they Rest In Peace.


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Cajun_Flyer said:
He went down on Monday. My understanding is that conditions weren't much better then though.
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It wasn't. I was going to head there from Michigan with my daughter for a mini vacation but due to poor weather we chose Memphis instead.

And looks like this one's N number was N1839X.
 
Who knows if it was weather or mechanical failure. It will likely be a bit before we find out. I have flown that route many times in a 182. Bottom line is if they had a brs installed and used it they would be alive. 182's are some of the few who have the stc. I have moved onto a cirrus but simply can't imagine loading up my family in a single engine piston without this safety device. I wonder how many people have to die or in better cases saved for the macho pilots to see how useful they are. I was keeping track of another thread where the guy said he chose a mooney over cirrus. If a dark night night comes and his engine quits it might be to late to correct for that mistake. I'm not making a sales pitch for cirrus here. But for brs. They should have more support in the ga community and they will eventually. When that time comes we will see fewer tragedies like this one.

Prayers for them and their families.
 
I see how useful a brs is. I also see how expensive the airplanes are to buy and maintain. No, I don't want to have the conversation about 'how much is you family's life worth'. If we had THAT conversation we would never leave the house (or shoot, or skydive, or fly or backcountry camp, etc...). However, an engine failure, over bad country, at night, in imc, is a low probability (although high risk) event. If you're will and able to spend thousands of dollars buying and maintaining a system you will almost certainly never use, that's fine. I choose to spend MY thousands of dollars on the best equipped plane I can, then spend the rest on avgas and training to learn how best to fly that plane. Nuff said on brs or lack thereof in this thread.

Prayers for the families
 
Retrofitting an BRS is mostly an expensive pipe dream. Something much more viable is XM or ads-b weather then adjust the flight accordingly.

I understand their destination had a ceiling near 4K or so? If they wanted to press and not land short there may of been options over lower terrain a bit out of the way. Plus you could see what direction had better wx, the trends and forecasts. Not to pile on the tragedy, just saying.
 
Same plane. Vfr in day time. Still a tragedy without brs.

Pipe dream? Have you not seen the over 70 events where multiple lives have been saved? That's only on certified aircraft. Including a 182
 
dennyleeb said:
Who knows if it was weather or mechanical failure. It will likely be a bit before we find out. I have flown that route many times in a 182. Bottom line is if they had a brs installed and used it they would be alive. 182's are some of the few who have the stc. I have moved onto a cirrus but simply can't imagine loading up my family in a single engine piston without this safety device. I wonder how many people have to die or in better cases saved for the macho pilots to see how useful they are. I was keeping track of another thread where the guy said he chose a mooney over cirrus. If a dark night night comes and his engine quits it might be to late to correct for that mistake. I'm not making a sales pitch for cirrus here. But for brs. They should have more support in the ga community and they will eventually. When that time comes we will see fewer tragedies like this one.

Prayers for them and their families.
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With statements this simplistic, I see why a brs is perfect for you. Put me down for macho.
 
gatlinburg is just over that last peak, then knoxville after that:

delete1.jpg
this is the terrain leading up to that last peak. after that it's flat as flat can be:
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here u can see the peaks ending. the flatland, and gatlinburg, is just under where that solid overcast layer is, and where I clearly made the decision to go somewhere else. this is looking WNW. to the east of those mountains there wasn't a cloud in the sky. that's how different the wx pattern can be on either side of them thar hills. I don't know how I made it out successfully without owning a cirrus. (<-------pssst, that was sarcasm------) delete3.jpg


anyways, as you can see, extra planning would be required for a trip like this. and although I know everyone has different minimums, I'm not sure I would want to make a flight over these hills at night in perfect wx, forget about questionable wx and with family. not judging the pilot at all, maybe I just know the terrain a little better than someone who might not have flown around here before. either way, sad.
 
This accident occurred Dec 26, Monday, around 4 PM (1.5 Hr before sunset). A cold front was to his North over me at the time.
 
tawood said:
With statements this simplistic, I see why a brs is perfect for you. Put me down for macho.
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So the others jumping to the conclusion that the pilot caused this didn't bother you. But somone offering a solution does. Interesting. Macho indeed!!
 
So, he was a fairly new (2014) VFR pilot flying in a mountainous area after dark (...family heard from him around 4:00, so sounds like this happened after that) in cloudy, foggy and rainy conditions (according to reports). Obviously something else could have caused this - engine failure, fuel exhaustion, etc, but it sure sounds like this guy got in over his head. Mountains in that area go up to 6,600 feet. To the person saying a chute could have saved him... not necessarily, at least not if he flew into the terrain. Spatial disorientation is one thing, but crashing into a mountain he couldn't see is another.

Does anyone know if he was using radar services/flight following or if there was any ATC communications? Just wondering if he declared an emergency at any point.

I keep thinking about the mother of that 8 year old and what she must be going through right now. So heartbreaking.
 
dennyleeb said:
Bottom line is if they had a brs installed and used it they would be alive.
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CFIT in instrument conditions at night with possible mountain obscuration (my observation). Not sure how a BRS would have helped there.
 
:(

Cajun, I think Tflhndn mentioned that he thought the pilot was on flight following. Wouldn't FF have alerted the pilot to climb to avoid terrain? I'm wondering if ATC radar could follow the flight in that mountainous area or not, especially if flying at 4,000 feet. (Serious question as a low time pilot still learning what FF can/can't do.)
 
In regards to ATC, from Kathryn's report: "The Air Force Rescue Coordination Center says the plane was in contact with air traffic controllers at McGhee Tyson. There is no more information on the conversations."

There also was communication from a passenger to family: "Hodges said Smith spoke to her family moments before the flight went missing. "They were about 13 minutes away from landing. That was the last time they spoke to her, and she hasn't been heard from since""
 
The area of the accident was very near the peak of Mt. Leconte and Clingman's dome. This is also on a straight line from Jacksonville to Gatlinburg, his starting and stop points. Clingman's dome is 6,600 ft.
 
Cluemeister said:
In regards to ATC, from Kathryn's report: "The Air Force Rescue Coordination Center says the plane was in contact with air traffic controllers at McGhee Tyson. There is no more information on the conversations."

There also was communication from a passenger to family: "Hodges said Smith spoke to her family moments before the flight went missing. "They were about 13 minutes away from landing. That was the last time they spoke to her, and she hasn't been heard from since""
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Just noticed they did a lot of updating to the article. If that's true, then it was likely still light out. Unfortunately, it wouldn't have helped much if they were in IMC.
 
rtk11 said:
:(

Cajun, I think Tflhndn mentioned that he thought the pilot was on flight following. Wouldn't FF have alerted the pilot to climb to avoid terrain? I'm wondering if ATC radar could follow the flight in that mountainous area or not, especially if flying at 4,000 feet. (Serious question as a low time pilot still learning what FF can/can't do.)
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If the plane was at 4000' TYS approach may not have been able to see him on radar that low over the mountains. If ATC was aware of his position and altitude they would have informed the pilot of a safe altitude for that area. We'll know more if they release the ATC tapes, which may be awhile.
 
I was going to aerotow hang glide Monday, but the winds aloft were pretty high, 34kts at 3000msl, I think like 60-65kts at 6000. I bagged it, it would have been too rough and my glider could not penetrate into that headwind if I got downwind of the landing zone. I imaging it was churned up pretty nicely over the mountains.
 
labbadabba said:
CFIT in instrument conditions at night with possible mountain obscuration (my observation). Not sure how a BRS would have helped there.
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I tend to agree. We simply don't know what happened at this point, but CFIT seems just as likely as spacial disorientation.
As for the BRS discussion, it's a great tool and I love knowing it's there in my Cirrus but it is still no replacement for flight planning and risk management. Low time pilot VFR at night with IMC and low fog is a BAD idea BRS or not.
 
JCranford said:
I see how useful a brs is. I also see how expensive the airplanes are to buy and maintain. No, I don't want to have the conversation about 'how much is you family's life worth'. If we had THAT conversation we would never leave the house (or shoot, or skydive, or fly or backcountry camp, etc...). However, an engine failure, over bad country, at night, in imc, is a low probability (although high risk) event. If you're will and able to spend thousands of dollars buying and maintaining a system you will almost certainly never use, that's fine. I choose to spend MY thousands of dollars on the best equipped plane I can, then spend the rest on avgas and training to learn how best to fly that plane. Nuff said on brs or lack thereof in this thread.

Prayers for the families
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With how long it takes the average guy who gets in over his head in the soup to toss in the towl

Plus impact time to a random CFIT

Is that enough time to pull?
 
I've flown in that area VFR and IFR, but mostly in VMC. It's not somewhere you want to have mechanical trouble and a forced landing, chute or not. I would expect that any pilot planning a flight there would pay attention to the terrain and plan a descent rather than starting a "normal" descent based on time or distance to destination. But we don't know what he did, or the circumstances . . . The tapes should reveal something.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
He went down on Monday. My understanding is that conditions weren't much better then though.
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Correct. I updated that. I'm on nights so my clock is messed up. :confused:
 
dennyleeb said:
So the others jumping to the conclusion that the pilot caused this didn't bother you. But somone offering a solution does. Interesting. Macho indeed!!
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It wasn't a "solution". Just a possible option. I'm finding fault with your "brs saves everything every time" mentality.
 
tawood said:
It wasn't a "solution". Just a possible option. I'm finding fault with his "brs saves everything every time" mentality.
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Yep, I'd argue if someone is lowering their risk assessment based upon whether or not they have BRS available then they need to evaluate where the macho mentality lies. I say that as one who thinks that the BRS is pretty good idea.
 
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