15 hour Dual

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drotto

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drotto
Am I reading these regulations correctly. To qualify for the IRF rating I need 40 hours IMC or simulated IMC conditions, including the various XC and other stuff in there. The rating says only 15 hours of that need to be dual with a CFII? So I can in theory fly 25 hours of that with a safety pilot under the hood as opposed to using an instructor? Does the 250 mile XC have to be with an CFII also, or can that be safety pilot?

I personally plan on doing most if not all of the training with the CFII, but wanted to clarify the requirements.
 
That's correct. And 61.65(d)(2)(ii) says the xc needs to be with an instructor.

My suggestion would be to get most/all of your early hours with an instructor in order to solidify your instrument scan and gain an understanding of the important aspects. Then, if that goes well and you still need to practice the things you've learned, grab a safety pilot and work on those things.
 
@drotto, I finished my instrument rating up last year and I was looking for ways to cut costs as well. My advice about flying with a safety pilot for 25 hours instead of an instructor: don't.

Unless your safety pilot is a CFII, you're likely to pickup some bad habits on your own. Remember, a safety pilot isn't there to teach you, they are there to look out for traffic while you are under the hood. That's about it.

I did SOME time with a safety pilot, but almost all of my time for the rating was with a CFII. And, it was worth it for fixing bad habits, learning techniques and just becoming a safer pilot in IMC.
 
EdFred said:
Spend the extra $1250 and get all 40 hours with a CFII
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I plan on doing basically all of it with my CFII, who has been my instructor since about 15 hours into my PPL. I was actually asking because I was honestly surprised that the FAA would allow that much to be done without dual.
 
EdFred said:
Spend the extra $1250 and get all 40 hours with a CFII
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I learned more by not doing this. I did some of my 40 hours with a safety pilot; not 25 hours, but some of it. He had a different CFII. He taught me some things his CFII taught him. I've learned other tips from other safety pilots.

It helps to have more than one source.
 
I had 3 or 4 CFII's for my instrument (switched flight schools about 1/3 of the way in) so I got more than one source, and wasn't getting the lost in translation 'instruction' from someone who might not have fully understood what they were 'teaching'.
 
drotto said:
I plan on doing basically all of it with my CFII, who has been my instructor since about 15 hours into my PPL. I was actually asking because I was honestly surprised that the FAA would allow that much to be done without dual.
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That's how I did it. Didn't have a safety pilot until after I had the cert. But, I know people who have successfully mixed in safety pilot time with instructor time (with the CFII checking in every few flights to make sure things are still going well) in an effort to save a little money.
 
mscard88 said:
I understand where James is coming from. It's ideal to finish up a student, if you can. When I got hired at the airlines, I was able to finish up everyone but 2 or 3, and they didn't have any trouble going with another CFI and finish. One of them is at Amer Airlines and flys F16s in the ANG. But realty is most CFIs, especially younger ones, are building time so they can move on to a career, and most CFI jobs are not a career. I also understand it's frustrating for a student to have to change CFIs, especially if it's more than once. But as long as the previous CFI smoothly transitions the student to the next CFI there should not be a problem. It really doesn't take a new CFI long to see where a student is at in his/her flying.
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Wrong thread.
 
jsstevens said:
I saw this and immediately thought "On gaaaurd!"
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I was flying with my CFII the other night and forgot to switch from Atlanta approach (we were just monitoring) to the ctaf frequency. He quickly switched it after I started mic clicking to turn the lights on.

Oops.... :(
 
EdFred said:
Spend the extra $1250 and get all 40 hours with a CFII
Click to expand...

What extra $1250?

He won't be ready in 40 hours if he tries that. It looks simple, but it isn't. If he's ready in 50 hours instead, that $1250 becomes $0.

I did some practice during my instrument training with a safety pilot, when my CFII's comments were "you need practice doing X" (whether it be VOR approaches, partial panel, Pattern A, or whatever), but it wasn't anywhere near 25 hours. Maybe 3-4 hours.
 
MAKG1 said:
What extra $1250?

He won't be ready in 40 hours if he tries that. It looks simple, but it isn't. If he's ready in 50 hours instead, that $1250 becomes $0.

I did some practice during my instrument training with a safety pilot, when my CFII's comments were "you need practice doing X" (whether it be VOR approaches, partial panel, Pattern A, or whatever), but it wasn't anywhere near 25 hours. Maybe 3-4 hours.
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40 hours (min) minus 15 hours (min) = 25 hours.
25 hours x $50/hr = $1250.

Math is fun.

I did all 40(.2) with a CFII. So I have no idea what this he won't be ready at 40 crap is
 
EdFred said:
40 hours (min) minus 15 hours (min) = 25 hours.
25 hours x $50/hr = $1250.

Math is fun.

I did all 40(.2) with a CFII. So I have no idea what this he won't be ready at 40 crap is
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I have been told (and lived) the fact the PPL in 40 hours is rare, on the other hand most CFII's (that I have spoken with) feel that students for IFR usually are at or very close to the 40 hour mark when they get the rating.
 
Caramon13 said:
@drotto, I finished my instrument rating up last year and I was looking for ways to cut costs as well. My advice about flying with a safety pilot for 25 hours instead of an instructor: don't.

Unless your safety pilot is a CFII, you're likely to pickup some bad habits on your own. Remember, a safety pilot isn't there to teach you, they are there to look out for traffic while you are under the hood. That's about it.

I did SOME time with a safety pilot, but almost all of my time for the rating was with a CFII. And, it was worth it for fixing bad habits, learning techniques and just becoming a safer pilot in IMC.
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Well even if you fly with a CFII you might learn some bad habits, most hour building CFIIs have very little real world IFR/IMC time.

Going up with a saftey pilot who flys serious IFR might not only save you money but help you.
 
James331 said:
Well even if you fly with a CFII you might learn some bad habits, most hour building CFI-I's have very little real world IFR/IMC time.

Going up with a saftey pilot who flys serious IFR might not only save you money but help you.
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I'm curious, what help can a safety pilot that flies serious IFR provide you about instrument flight that a CFI-I can't? A safety pilot with an instrument rating or a CFI-I both have the same knowledge. The difference is the CFI-I is probably going to be more able to effectively communicate it to you. Not always the case, but I'd bet those that can't are the exception, not the norm.

Granted you'll save money on the instruction costs, but that's what, a thousand dollars, maybe 500 (see Ed's post)? What if you fail your check-ride relying on the advice of a safety pilot instead of a CFI-I? The second check-ride will eliminate any savings you may have realized.

Here in FL, we get IMC a few months a year: in the Spring and maybe wintertime.
From April until about August we have thunderstorms and I don't fly IMC when those are around.

I'm barely able to keep my currency unless I go up with a safety pilot, so I definitely use them (not CFI-I's) now that I have my rating.

If I was going for a rating, I would not look to a safety pilot to help me prepare for that rating. I'd want a CFI-I in the right seat who was familiar with the DPE, the area, the procedures and yeah, also had some experience in IMC (if possible), but if they don't have much, who cares? You can't TEACH someone how it feels to fly in IMC, you have to go out and DO it to learn for yourself how it feels.
 
Caramon13 said:
I'm curious, what help can a safety pilot that flies serious IFR provide you about instrument flight that a CFI-I can't? A safety pilot with an instrument rating or a CFI-I both have the same knowledge. The difference is the CFI-I is probably going to be more able to effectively communicate it to you. Not always the case, but I'd bet those that can't are the exception, not the norm.

Granted you'll save money on the instruction costs, but that's what, a thousand dollars, maybe 500 (see Ed's post)? What if you fail your check-ride relying on the advice of a safety pilot instead of a CFI-I? The second check-ride will eliminate any savings you may have realized.

Here in FL, we get IMC a few months a year: in the Spring and maybe wintertime.
From April until about August we have thunderstorms and I don't fly IMC when those are around.

I'm barely able to keep my currency unless I go up with a safety pilot, so I definitely use them (not CFI-I's) now that I have my rating.

If I was going for a rating, I would not look to a safety pilot to help me prepare for that rating. I'd want a CFI-I in the right seat who was familiar with the DPE, the area, the procedures and yeah, also had some experience in IMC (if possible), but if they don't have much, who cares? You can't TEACH someone how it feels to fly in IMC, you have to go out and DO it to learn for yourself how it feels.
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Well first do you just want to pass the ride and get a instrument ticket, or do you want to use the ticket to fly IMC?

The knowledge IS NOT the same between a 250-500hr CFII and say a freight dog, just because you know the regs doesn't mean you know that much about flying in weather, there is a reason many flying jobs require XX time IMC and their is a reason the ATP requires a certain amount of instrument time.

Your CFII will prep you for the ride ether way, logging the simulated instrument time with a real instrument pilot is probably a good idea ether way, not many folks use CFIIs who have much real experience and there are tons of instrument pilots who just never bothered to get their CFI or some who are CFIs and never bothered with their II.
 
James331 said:
Well first do you just want to pass the ride and get a instrument ticket, or do you want to use the ticket to fly IMC?

The knowledge IS NOT the same between a 250-500hr CFII and say a freight dog, just because you know the regs doesn't mean you know that much about flying in weather, there is a reason many flying jobs require XX time IMC and their is a reason the ATP requires a certain amount of instrument time.

Your CFII will prep you for the ride ether way, logging the simulated instrument time with a real instrument pilot is probably a good idea ether way, not many folks use CFIIs who have much real experience and there are tons of instrument pilots who just never bothered to get their CFI or some who are CFIs and never bothered with their II.
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I agree with you that a freight dog is gonna definitely have more IMC time then a CFI-I with 500hrs. No question. But..for the purposes of obtaining a rating, what is that person going to be able to contribute that makes them so much more valuable to you then a CFI-I? No where in the requirements is actual IMC required for your rating. Should you have it? Hell yeah you should, I did! But you don't need it.

So take away the need to fly in IMC for your rating. You won't be doing your checkride in IMC anyway so who cares? Now, knowledge-wise, what can a grizzled, veteran safety pilot teach you about flying to instrument PTS standards that a CFI-I can't?
 
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Caramon13 said:
I agree with you that a freight dog is gonna definitely have more IMC time then a CFI-I with 500hrs. No question. But..for the purposes of obtaining a rating, what is that person going to be able to contribute that makes them so much more valuable to you then a CFI-I? No where in the requirements is actual IMC required for your rating. Should you have it? Hell yeah you should, I did! But you don't need it.

So take away the need to fly in IMC for your rating. You won't be doing your checkride in IMC anyway so who cares? Now, knowledge-wise, what can a grizzled, veteran safety pilot teach you about flying to instrument PTS standards that a CFI-I can't?
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A saftey pilot is no replacment for a II, no doubt.

But there are some operational differences and real world stuff. It's like a non pilot getting their AGI, sure they can sign you off for your PPL written, probably can also help teach you the test, but you're learning the test.

Here's one, the difference between being able to legally fly to a airport IFR/IMC, but it not being a good idea, different ways of finding runway conditions, when to file and when not to, the value of a pop up, knowing when to go VFR and when to go IFR, composite flight planes and why you might want to use one, filing a IFR to start after airborn and why you might want to do it.

Icing

When a thunderstorm is looking to start based on temp and dew point, knowing what clouds indicate what, understanding how far to trust a TAF.
 
@James331, yep agree with you on the real-world applications. I'll go a step further and say that it might not be a bad idea to (after getting your rating), go up with a veteran like that in actual IMC, maybe take that CFI-I along as well if you can. Get all kinds of useful info on that flight and really enjoy it. There's all kinds of stress you have pre-checkride but afterwards that kind of flight would just tie it all together nicely I think.

I've flown twice now with the same DPE for my PPL and instrument. This guy could school any of the CFI's at the local flight schools (in fact I think he has, probably signed them off heh). He flies jets for a very well known business man and he's got his own piston-plane he flies for fun.

Each check-ride/oral I've learned new stuff from him. Given a day with him as a safety pilot I bet I could pickup a TON of useful info that I never would have known otherwise through a CFI locally.
 
James331 said:
Well first do you just want to pass the ride and get a instrument ticket, or do you want to use the ticket to fly IMC?

The knowledge IS NOT the same between a 250-500hr CFII and say a freight dog, just because you know the regs doesn't mean you know that much about flying in weather, there is a reason many flying jobs require XX time IMC and their is a reason the ATP requires a certain amount of instrument time.

Your CFII will prep you for the ride ether way, logging the simulated instrument time with a real instrument pilot is probably a good idea ether way, not many folks use CFIIs who have much real experience and there are tons of instrument pilots who just never bothered to get their CFI or some who are CFIs and never bothered with their II.
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Of course, you might also be able to find a CFII with freight dog experience. Best of both worlds. Depending on where you are that might not even be too difficult. Both of the CFIIs I used during training had lots of real world experience.
 
I'm an IFR student. I do fly safety pilot for already rated instrument pilots and give tips on the 430 or the AP, but flying the approach is their business and I watch for traffic and if they ask I'll handle the comms from the FAF until we're missed and setting up the next one.

I do not fly under the hood unless I'm paying the CFII next to me. I don't want to learn bad habits and the monies I could save will never add up to the potential loss.

But that's just me.
 
Personally, I have no problem whatsoever with flying some of those extra hours with a safety pilot....provided it is to practice things you worked on with the CFII. I think it can be very beneficial during during the later stages of the training, especially with the CFII's guidance. At that stage, the learning of bad habits would be minimal (should be negligible) and the student (hopefully) can recognize when she is doing things right and doing things wrong.

I like to think of it as the instrument student equivalent of student pilot solo.
 
azure said:
Of course, you might also be able to find a CFII with freight dog experience. Best of both worlds. Depending on where you are that might not even be too difficult. Both of the CFIIs I used during training had lots of real world experience.
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Agree 100%

Best to always use ATPs or guys with thousands of hours, they actually have flown outside of the school environment, they arnt as likely to ditch you the second a regional winks at them and they tend to know what is important and what isn't.
 
Don't want to hijack but was wondering if XC PIC hours towards PPL count towards the total 50 XC needed for IFR or is in only XC PIC hours after PPl that count?
 
mulligan said:
Don't want to hijack but was wondering if XC PIC hours towards PPL count towards the total 50 XC needed for IFR or is in only XC PIC hours after PPl that count?
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They do, and so do the simulated IMC provided your CFI is certified to teach IFR.
 
mulligan said:
Don't want to hijack but was wondering if XC PIC hours towards PPL count towards the total 50 XC needed for IFR or is in only XC PIC hours after PPl that count?
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"PIC" time is defined in FAR 61.51. Countable cross country time is defined in 61.1. If you have time that is properly logged as PIC (which includes student solo) and as cross country time (which your student cross country were, I hope), it's really no more complicated than 1+1=2.

As a general rule, only "training" requirements for a certificate or rating raise a "does it carry over from one certificate or rating to another" question.
 
Somedudeintn said:
I was flying with my CFII the other night and forgot to switch from Atlanta approach (we were just monitoring) to the ctaf frequency. He quickly switched it after I started mic clicking to turn the lights on.

Oops.... :(
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I did that the other night after switching from approach to ctaf but I didnt catch the fact I had hit the frequency swap button twice, putting approach back in the active. It was a quiet night and the controller, whom I've met at a few airport functions, was like "Skyhawk *** any luck with the the lights?" I realized my error and responded,"not yet, maybe once I switch frequencies?" Humble pie
 
Yup, easy oops, happens to folks who fly for a living too.
 
I would wait to use a safety pilot until you are comfortable doing approaches and holds correctly to PTS standards otherwise bad habits can develop. Once you have the training on these areas then I think you can use a safety pilot before the checkride as long as the safety pilot is a good instrument rated pilot.
 
meh. did mine in 45.7(IMC + hood). ~ 25 dual, 20 safety + some flying on my own. Some extra time is due to needing almost all 50h of XC and slowing down over the winter. Total time: 8 months.

CFII usefulness was pretty limited. First one I didn't really like. Young, lots of talking(mostly not about flying either), but no method to the madness. Learned some things, first IMC. Maybe 10h with her. Switched to a greenhorn CFII(I was his first send off to a DPE for any rating). I think I taught him more than he taught me. Passed first attempt.
 
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I've flown quite a bit of hood time with a safety pilot who is instrument rated.

I'm not sure I'd want to do it with a plain old PPL. Reason being, the IR guy knows what's going on and can help catch my mistakes.

Does he have the knowledge of a double-I? No. Is he vastly more useful than a PP? Yes. Is he cheaper than the double-I? Yes, especially when he's paying for half my gas.

That said, I don't think it's the best idea to try and do the minimum 15 with the instructor and the rest with the safety pilot. That instructor still has to sign you off and he/she isn't going to until you're ready. I have a butt-ton of hours, but had to stop 3/4 of the way through for an engine rebuild. I didn't fly for 3 months, and while I didn't start completely over, it's taken a lot to get back to where I was, not to mention I switched instructors, further prolonging the process.
 
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