12 Seconds to Pattern Altitude

Hmmm... What are the rules for flying in an airport traffic area ?:dunno::dunno:

Actually I believe solo Jay wouldn't need one but with a passenger they both would require one.

Aerobatics on the other hand is Abrupt change in attitude, abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration not necessary for normal flight. That's all pretty much in the eye of the beholder. Personally I don't care what Jay does with his plane. I see that kind of take off or high speed low approach pull ups all the time. Now the FAA seeing a 5,000 fpm pull up? I'm sure they would look at it as aerobatic.
 
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Aside from the FACT that we need to be good neighbors to the community around the airport.

For instance, the airport I manage has home owners who would like to see the airport gone. We, like virtually all airports have noise abatement procedures, and ours specifically points out problem houses.

Some braggart clown who wants to perform a low level aerobatic airshow will be asked to leave, and not come back. This can be enforced.

It is also not a good idea to give students the wrong idea about obstacle climbs. Some kid will kill himself because some hotshot moron is his hero.

A 709 ride should be the logical consequence of this public confession of ignorance.
 
Aside from the FACT that we need to be good neighbors to the community around the airport.

For instance, the airport I manage has home owners who would like to see the airport gone. We, like virtually all airports have noise abatement procedures, and ours specifically points out problem houses.

.


So a steep climb at the end of the runway would limit the noise exposure over surrounding neighborhoods... The downside is...:dunno::dunno:;)
 
Wrong! 30/60 would be an "abnormal" attitude.


Going Upside Down And All Around
I can think of several reasons to to get into an airplane and learn how to do loops and rolls, chandelles and lazy eights. One reason is the thrill. Another is the beauty of those maneuvers. Yet another good reason is the additional skill that it provides, helping you become a more proficient pilot. And, still another reason is the insurance advantages that may be gained through the additional training and flight experience.

There are a few regulations that govern the operation of aircraft in aerobatic flight. Let us first define this kind of flight, and then we'll look at the regulations. What is aerobatic flight? Definitions can be found in two places: the federal aviation regulations (FARs) and the Aeronautical Information Manual (AIM). The term is not included in the definition section of the FARs, although "Aerobatic Flight" is the language used to title FAR 91.303. Within FAR 91.303, "aerobatic flight" is meant to be "an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's altitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight."
Aerobatic flight is not defined in the AIM, although acrobatic flight is defined in two respects. In the AIM's Pilot/Controller Glossary, acrobatic flight is first defined with reference to Part 91 as "an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration not necessary for normal flight." In the second instance, it is defined by the International Civil Aviation Organization as "maneuvers intentionally performed by an aircraft involving an abrupt change in its attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal variation in speed." The two definitions seem essentially the same, and as best I can tell, the terms aerobatic and acrobatic are used interchangeably in the context of the regulatory obligation that we will be reviewing.
The definition is rather general. It does not identify specific degrees of pitch or banking; it does not reference stress limits or operating limitations; and it does not list particular maneuvers. However, by its plain language, we can get a good sense of what the definition includes. To start, the language of the regulation requires that an aerobatic maneuver must be an "intentional" maneuver. So, for example, if extreme weather or wake turbulence causes your aircraft to become inverted unintentionally, that would not be considered aerobatic flight. Second, the maneuver must involve an "abrupt" change in the aircraft's attitude, an abnormal attitude, and/or abnormal acceleration. Finally, the maneuver must not have been necessary for normal flight - so, if the aircraft's movement is smooth and normal flight requires the maneuver, it would not be considered aerobatic.
Over the years, this general definition has been explained through FAA interpretation. The FAA maintains that smoothly executed steep turns, approaches to stalls, stalls, and unusual attitudes for the purpose of demonstrating recovery procedures are not considered aerobatic because they do not involve an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude. In addition, the FAA believes that the attitudes and accelerations involved in these maneuvers are incidental to and necessary for training flights. In this regard, then, the FAA considers such training flights to be normal flights.
On the other hand, spins, loops, rolls, and other types of abnormal attitude maneuvers performed outside the scope of "normal training flights" would fall within the definition of aerobatic flight. A steep climbout after takeoff and a left turn at a very low altitude has been viewed as aerobatic because it was abnormal and not necessary for normal flight. And, a steep dive and pullout has been determined to constitute aerobatic flight because it involved an abrupt change in attitude that was not necessary for normal flight. Similarly, an accelerated pass down a runway may be viewed as aerobatic flight.
But remember, if these maneuvers are not performed intentionally, and if they are performed smoothly as part of normal flight, then they won't be viewed as aerobatic under the FAA's definition. To the extent that such maneuvers are performed within the flight training curriculum to obtain a certificate or rating, they would be viewed as part of normal flight. Although we have not seen a specific interpretation on this, aerobatic training flights would probably not be subject to this "normal flight" exception, since they would be performed intentionally and would generally involve abrupt changes and abnormal attitudes and acceleration. Therefore, those training flights would otherwise have to comply with the regulations applicable to aerobatic flight.
Next month, we'll look at some of the regulatory restrictions put on aerobatic flight. Kathy Yodice is an attorney with Yodice Associates in Washington, D.C., which provides legal counsel to AOPA and administers AOPA's Legal Services Plan. She is an instrument-rated private pilot
 
Great post McFly..............

Now... What is legal in a Airport Traffic Area..:dunno:;)
 
Really? REALLY?

Using the departure method I've described, you will be at 10' AGL for at MOST 15 seconds.

As opposed to a normal Vy climb out, the difference is, um, a few seconds?

Wasnt your OP about this all about shaving a few seconds off?
 
I'm not so sure about that. When we level off at pattern altitude, I am still at 100 knots plus. That's certainly well above Vy. Hmmm... :idea:

With the big fan in front turning at full power. What happens when it quits at 200AGL?

I've read that the speed with which you need to push forward on the stick if the engine quits in a climb is extremely sudden. Hauling back on the stick after the engine quits is so counter intuitive to everything that we've all learned, that if you and Mary start to commit that movement to muscle memory ... well, we don't want to read an NTSB report about it.
 
Really? REALLY?

Using the departure method I've described, you will be at 10' AGL for at MOST 15 seconds.

As opposed to a normal Vy climb out, the difference is, um, a few seconds?

And birds don't fly above 10'?

Honestly, I worry about undetected asteroids, sometimes. :D
15 seconds at say 120 knots....lessee,
So that means ~2800 feet more consumed getting to 1,000 feet. That's 1800 feet more of glide you are going to need to get back.

Jay, I hate to tell you this, but you've gone stupid. you're ridiculous and have obviously never either done the flight check or the learning. Just admit that you like "swoopdy do". Never mind that you are actually less safe, by quite a lot, even if you ARE Bob Hoover.

I can do this in the twin- cross the departure end of my field at 160 knots. But guess what? There's noplace to STOP if I do that. And I end up a good three-quarter mile farther away from the runway end at 1000 agl.
******

I wash my hands.

Join dagger flight. Just stay away from my home airport, please. Your flight suit awaits.
 
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How does this work in the experimental world - if you can put one of several engines in the thing, who or what determines Vx and Vy? Wouldn't that change based on the build configuration? Are there really "factory numbers" for Vx and Vy?

Determine it, like Jesse stated.

Look in this link (p 38)-they explain one way to do it.
http://experimenter.epubxp.com/i/149316/0
 
Hmmm. Not sure but this appears to be a video of a Cessna Caravan flying in ground effect while accelerating and then doing a steep climb (well, steep for a Caravan) to pattern altitude; I think similar to the maneuver Jay proposes:

 
Way too many low flying insects at 10ft. Personally I like to get through that altitude ASAP.
 
Really? REALLY?

Using the departure method I've described, you will be at 10' AGL for at MOST 15 seconds.

As opposed to a normal Vy climb out, the difference is, um, a few seconds?

And birds don't fly above 10'? <No thanks, I don't like red herring.>

:D

Yep, really. I've had numerous birds miss my airplane by what appeared to be 5' or less in the runway environment on takeoff. And I'm not running the airplane out to 140 knots in ground effect either.

Birds are one of the things folks flying Champs, C-172's, Pathfinders and other slower aircraft don't have to worry about as much in the runway environment. Those aircraft are climbing out at roughly half the speed you're talking buzzing around at in your RV, meaning everyone has 2x the time to see and avoid, and IF there is a bird strike, the impact will have 1/4 the kinetic energy it will when you do it in the RV. You have seen the bird strike threads on VAF, haven't you? Not pretty.

It is far better to understand the risks and make your decision with all of the information in hand, rather than ignoring facts that are inconvenient to your mindset.

Note that I'm not telling you not to do 140 knot zoom climbs. I've spent what, 5 posts in the thread, trying to help you understand the physics of what you're doing so at least you can make an educated choice. Others have done the same. Sticking your fingers in your ears and going lalalalala when people offer you information isn't going to make you a better pilot.
 
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True. If the engine quits going uphill during that 12 seconds, I am sure the light airframe will stop accelerating pretty quickly.

HOWEVER -- I am still exposed to less time in the climb, which is the critical period where engine failure is disastrous.

Don't know if I buy this. You say your engine is exposed to less time in climb, yet your engine is at full power booming down the runway and still at full power in the zoom climb. Physics says "x" amount of potential energy must be put into the system to achieve "y" altitude. No matter how the engine does it or how you climb, at least that much energy must be expended. There is no free lunch.

That aside, I don't really think I would like to be near the end of a runway at 140kts when a jug blows out the side and oil spews all over the windscreen. In fact I'd never like it, but at least at altitude you have a chance of directing the airplane without resorting to hard pulls and other heroic measures. JMHO.
 
Don't know if I buy this. You say your engine is exposed to less time in climb, yet your engine is at full power booming down the runway and still at full power in the zoom climb. Physics says "x" amount of potential energy must be put into the system to achieve "y" altitude. No matter how the engine does it or how you climb, at least that much energy must be expended. There is no free lunch.

That aside, I don't really think I would like to be near the end of a runway at 140kts when a jug blows out the side and oil spews all over the windscreen. In fact I'd never like it, but at least at altitude you have a chance of directing the airplane without resorting to hard pulls and other heroic measures. JMHO.

What bill says. seriously jay, this is dirt simple physics and easily flight tested if you don't believe it.

I've disproved this to pilots several times. I never question it, I simply tell them to show me their way and I record the metrics. Then I tell them something to try and record those results and their mind is suddenly changed.
 
Jay, if you're gonna do this, at least roll inverted midway down the runway and do an inverted zooming climb-out. Heck, you said it's high performance; do something worth watching. Don't forget to turn the smoke on too.
 
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So Jay, you live on the coast and have no fear of birds? Sure you are only on the deck for a brief time, but time isn't what matters here. It is how much ground you cover. Also the faster you go the less time you and the B1-rd have to react to each other AND the harder you hit it.

Last bird I hit I was on the ground, and I haven't yet had to clean one up that didn't happen below TPA.
 
Great post McFly..............

Now... What is legal in a Airport Traffic Area..:dunno:;)

I'm not sure he is in violation of anything (unless he bends something, then they will find something, anything to hang him on)

Hell I don't really care if he does it, just don't even think for a second that you are "safer" for it.

The risks are greater, both from mechanical failure and wildlife. If it makes you smile have at, just know what you are getting into. I've done it, and in a lightly loaded 182 the results are likely quite similar.
 
I've read that the speed with which you need to push forward on the stick if the engine quits in a climb is extremely sudden. .
You actually should go out and try it. Not a zoom climb that is but a normal Vy or Vx climb, at altitude, them simulate an (unlikely) sudden loss of power. Remembering that you want to establish and maintain Vy, you will find that it's not that extreme or sudden. Or to say it another way, it's easy to over do it.

OTOH the turn back to the runway is interesting to test fly as well. One may think gentle and easy as she goes - the optimal turn is not gentle. It's a higher bank turn than you would use in any other normal flight op. It's easy to under do it.
 
I'm not sure he is in violation of anything (unless he bends something, then they will find something, anything to hang him on)

Hell I don't really care if he does it, just don't even think for a second that you are "safer" for it.

The risks are greater, both from mechanical failure and wildlife. If it makes you smile have at, just know what you are getting into. I've done it, and in a lightly loaded 182 the results are likely quite similar.

Aerobatics below 1,500 ft. Ever hear of air show pilot Melissa Andrzejewski Pemberton? She went through this when she got an emergency revocation (was overturned) of her license from the FAA. She did a wing wag and then a "steep climb" that was considered aerobatic by the FAA. Just like the post I made above, the FAA considers a steep climb out as not necessary for normal flight.

What Jay is doing is added risk but no more than the air show performers that ball up aircraft every year. He's not doing rolls and loops over his airport at 250 ft. It's just a rapid climb that the aircraft is well capable of. As long as he has a good understanding of the stall / spin accidents that sometimes occur from these maneuvers, have at it. It's a quiet little airport with no population west of the runway.

Just realize Jay that people are watching. What you consider to be fun, some will consider to be in violation of 91.303 and 91.13. I have fun in my Glasair, but I do it away from the airport, out of sight from the public.
 
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Fortunately nobody who lives or visits the island has a smart phone other than an iPad, and it's common knowledge that anything less than an Android is incapable of making a video of such an event and posting it on the internet.
Aerobatics below 1,500 ft. Ever hear of air show pilot Melissa Andrzejewski Pemberton? She went through this when she got an emergency revocation of her license from the FAA. She did a wing wag and then a "steep climb" that was considered aerobatic by the FAA. Just like the post I made above, the FAA considers a steep climb out as not necessary for normal flight.

What Jay is doing is added risk but no more than the air show performers than ball up aircraft every year. He's not doing rolls and loops over his airport at 250 ft. It's just a rapid climb that the aircraft is well capable of. As long as he has a good understanding of the stall / spin accidents that sometimes occur from these maneuvers, have at it. It's a quiet little airport with no population west of the runway.

Just realize Jay that people are watching. What you consider to be fun, some will consider to be in violation of 91.303 and 91.13. I have fun in my Glasair, but I do it away from the airport, out of sight from the public.
 
So how high can you hold that 5,000fpm climb? How did you mesure that? Most VSIs only go to about 3k.

I can do that in our C208B empty with 900hp, normal rotation and pitch vy, but even that has it limits on how long I can hold that rate.
 
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Fortunately nobody who lives or visits the island has a smart phone other than an iPad, and it's common knowledge that anything less than an Android is incapable of making a video of such an event and posting it on the internet.

ROFLMAO...

Seriously though, Jay... I sat through Physics for Aviators twice in college and learned enough to know that the mathematicians and flight test folk who came up with the numbers for any airplane, spent a lot more brainpower on it than I.

Doc got it right, if you're screaming along and pause only a second or two figuring out what just happened when the mill quits, you're a lot further offshore than a standard climb.

You want to play, fine. But the assertion that you suddenly "found" a safer way to depart in a speedy single already had little merit against 100 years of manned flight and thousands upon thousands of engineers and test pilots who never wrote a single word in a single article saying "Check this out! We found a safer way!"

In any endeavor where you know there's thousands of people smarter than you working on it, and you suddenly think you figured out something they haven't already tried, it's time to stop and think and test. You probably got something wrong.

Example: If some guy opened a hotel across the stree from you and said he had figured out a fool prof way to make all of the daily problems and issues you have in the hotel biz go away magically, and he's 50% more profitable, and claims better hair and teeth for all of his occupants when they leave... Wouldn't you laugh?

*Think* Jay. You haven't found any magic pixie dust lying around in RV land. Airplanes are still airplanes, and the physics is still the same.

The RV can do fun stuff. Just don't try to convince yourself that stuff is SAFER to justify or rationalize the fun stuff. You're ADDING risk, but that's your call to make with a hot rod airplane.

Same as the guy who takes corners at 50 MPH in his sports car. He's adding risk and may not know if there's gravel strewn across the corner ahead. He might have a ball taking the corner, he might just end up rolled into a ball of metal and a roll cage in the ditch. Same thing.
 
Think NORDO. What happens when some guy comes at you from the opposite direction? You're too busy keeping the shiny side off the runway to even notice and unfortunately, you've taken out a whole family.
Stick with the "normal" take off profile WE all expect unless you call for a combat departure.
 
You want to play, fine. But the assertion that you suddenly "found" a safer way to depart in a speedy single already had little merit against 100 years of manned flight and thousands upon thousands of engineers and test pilots who never wrote a single word in a single article saying "Check this out! We found a safer way!"

^^^ This, Jay.

The problem isn't so much you want to zoom climb out ... it's that you want to come here and justify it as "safer" in a manner that flies in the face of simple physics among people who know better.
 
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Among the first questions that any sensible pilot would ask himself about this zoom-climb BS are:

1. Would you do it?

2. If you did, would you do it publicly?

3. If you survived, would you tell anybody?

4. If so who would you tell?

5. If you told a bunch of other pilots, many with knowledge, credentials, and experience far superior to your own, all of whom flat-out told you that you were nuts, would you challenge their position based on some half-ass safety story that you made up on the fly in hopes of justifying it?
 
5. If you told a bunch of other pilots, many with knowledge, credentials, and experience far superior to your own, all of whom flat-out told you that you were nuts, would you challenge their position based on some half-ass safety story that you made up on the fly in hopes of justifying it?

Pretty much sums up this thread.
 
In the Winter time, when the roads are slick and icy, I drive faster so I am out on the dangerous roads for less time.


I read that 78% of all accidents happen within 3 miles of home, so I moved.


I fly 4 feet off the runway at 140kts because it is safer.
 
Among the first questions that any sensible pilot would ask himself about this zoom-climb BS are:

1. Would you do it?

2. If you did, would you do it publicly?

3. If you survived, would you tell anybody?

4. If so who would you tell?

5. If you told a bunch of other pilots, many with knowledge, credentials, and experience far superior to your own, all of whom flat-out told you that you were nuts, would you challenge their position based on some half-ass safety story that you made up on the fly in hopes of justifying it?

Did it in a F-14 with a USN Demo Pilot in the front seat but we did have a little excess thrust. :D It clearly wasn't "safer" given the TF30's but it was a lot of fun.:yes:

OTOH, I wouldn't do it in a GA aircraft for any reason, especially at my local field with deer around all the time. The other night the SOF counted over 30 on the grounds around twilight. I want to be climbing at Vx or Vy ASAP to avoid venison stew or any other thing on the runway.

Like others have said, it can be fun and it can be dumb but it isn't "safer".

Cheers
 
Add me in the "Jay, you've lost your marbles" camp.

It's not safer. Not even close for so many reasons.

It is fun. If you just admitted it was fun and a risk you accepted, I don't think anyone would care. I've certainly accepted my share of risks.

Oh, and with 50 hours combined (so figure 25ish each) you and Mary have mastered the thing? That is probably one of the least realistic self-assessments I've heard.
 
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Quick climb to.......pattern altitude
I was an engineer at McDonnell Douglas in St. Louis, and taught primary students out of STL (this is back in the 80's).
One day I was in a 150 with a student, and an F15 departed before us, doing a Viking (vertical) departure, like the one in the video. He climbed vertically to 5000', pulled back to inverted, then rolled level. Whole thing took 15, maybe 20 seconds. (This was a 'noise abatement' procedure)
After the appropriate wait time, the controller cleared us for takeoff (caution wake turbulence of course). I responded that 'somehow it's just not the same'. I think he almost choked laughing.
 
Just to add to the physics side of the argument.

Another factor working against you in your zoom climb is drag. Drag is proportional to speed squared. Any time spent at higher speeds is wasting more energy overcoming drag. Energy that would have been converted to altitude if you were climbing at Vy.

Don't know if I buy this. You say your engine is exposed to less time in climb, yet your engine is at full power booming down the runway and still at full power in the zoom climb. Physics says "x" amount of potential energy must be put into the system to achieve "y" altitude. No matter how the engine does it or how you climb, at least that much energy must be expended. There is no free lunch.
 
I didn't realize physics applied to RVs.
 
At first they do
Then you put on a flight suit and the influence of those pesky things goes down 20%. Then 5% is deducted for each cool squadron patch you wear on the flight suit. Fighter pilot helmet - further 20% and 7% for nomex gloves. RAF sheepskin gloves are 12.5% but are white and hence high maintenance.
 
At first they do
Then you put on a flight suit and the influence of those pesky things goes down 20%. Then 5% is deducted for each cool squadron patch you wear on the flight suit. Fighter pilot helmet - further 20% and 7% for nomex gloves. RAF sheepskin gloves are 12.5% but are white and hence high maintenance.

OK, I think Jay gets the point.
 
OK, I think Jay gets the point.

Hope he does.
But I wasn't even really thinking about him. Sold a Yak-52 once with a compliment of a custom made nomex flight suit, hundred-some patches (I kid you not, just pulled everything that looked good from the catalogue), gentex helmet, gloves, all the good stuff.
Also sold a beautiful Meyers biplane once with six goggles - two of each three kinds commonly available, all new. Whatever makes the pilot owner happy.
 
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