1 hour to empty - crosswind landing

Theoretically I should be able to shut my engine off and restart it in flight, that don't mean I'm gonna go up and do it!

Nor am I going to create an emergency when I have a better choice, just to prove that I can handle it! If 15kts is what I feel like I can handle, then I better make sure I have enough fuel to go elsewhere! Same when it comes to any other weather situation that I have not been trained to deal with!

By your logic, if I'm not IFR trained and rated, I should just go out and practice flying in IFR conditions or else I'm incompetent. How about I AVOID IMC for now!

If you want to rationalize away, go for it, it adds an FAA 'hazardous attitudes' to the stack you're building against yourself riding along. If you believe you are creating an emergency or hazardous situation by attempting a cross wind landing well within the machine's ability....
 
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IMO, 50 hrs you should know the machine inside out and be able to operate at and identify the edges of the entire flight envelope; insurance companies assume it's happened by 100.


I'd agree with 50 hours.

btw, your 'not reading what I say' rant got me thinking. I know it just recently happened to me so I went looking, and sure enough...

Under 'Cleared For the Approach' I have a Missing VOR thread. The title is maybe what threw people but my first post clearly stated what my point was.

ME: Why's the compass rose not on the sectionals for COE VOR?
MOB: The VOR isn't missing.
ME: No, like the OP said, why's the COMPASS ROSE missing?
MOB: The compass rose isn't missing on the Jepp charts.
ME: No, compass rose on the SECTIONALS?
MOB: Well, the VOR symbol is there.
ME: Grrrrrr, I know the VOR symbol is there. The COMPASS ROSE...on the SECTIONAL?
MOB: Well, I've already said why.
ME: Face meet palm
 
I'd agree with 50 hours.

btw, your 'not reading what I say' rant got me thinking. I know it just recently happened to me so I went looking, and sure enough...

Under 'Cleared For the Approach' I have a Missing VOR thread. The title is maybe what threw people but my first post clearly stated what my point was.

ME: Why's the compass rose not on the sectionals for COE VOR?
MOB: The VOR isn't missing.
ME: No, like the OP said, why's the COMPASS ROSE missing?
MOB: The compass rose isn't missing on the Jepp charts.
ME: No, compass rose on the SECTIONALS?
MOB: Well, the VOR symbol is there.
ME: Grrrrrr, I know the VOR symbol is there. The COMPASS ROSE...on the SECTIONAL?
MOB: Well, I've already said why.
ME: Face meet palm

Now you understand why I don't typically get involved in minutia stuff. If it's not deadly stuff, I don't bother arguing it. It's only when people make suicide stupid type arguments that I bother.
 
I think it's much better when people recognize their limitations and stay within them regardless of what other people might think.
 
I think it's much better when people recognize their limitations and stay within them regardless of what other people might think.

I guess, the only person you're screwing is yourself, and maybe your pax and family.
 
I guess, the only person you're screwing is yourself, and maybe your pax and family.
You're really screwing yourself if you try something that you don't think you can do just because someone on the internet told you you should be able to do it.
 
You're really screwing yourself if you try something that you don't think you can do just because someone on the internet told you you should be able to do it.

15 knot cross wind landing you would advocate that a rated pilot not attempt it and divert because they were not comfortable with that crosswind? Seriously? FMD...
 
15 knot cross wind landing you would advocate that a rated pilot not attempt it and divert because they were not comfortable with that crosswind? Seriously? FMD...
Absolutely serious, if they don't think they can do it.
 
Absolutely serious, if they don't think they can do it.
What part of the approach is dangerous? Like I said, I don't care if they land out of it or not, if they bail at the bottom and go elsewhere I have no issues.
 
How about this?

If you don't feel confident operating in wind conditions that are "normal" for your area, you should go and get some dual and get comfortable.

I think what Henning is saying is that the winds discussed here are what he considers to be "normal" and should be within the skill level of a private pilot, or at least that a private pilot should be able to fly along in a crosswind and safely evaluate whether or not it's possible to land in those conditions.

We're not talking Flying Wild Alaska 30G50 crosswinds here.

I guess I have a problem with how "personal minimums" are sometimes used. I'm fine with someone saying "I'm proficient to fly down the ILS to 200, but my personal minimums are 500' and two miles".
Too often though a pilot is barely proficient to fly to his own personal minimums, which means he's NOT really improving his safety.

I think pilots should maintain their proficiency through regular practice and periodic evaluations to the PTS, and then feel free to set their own personal minimums as they see fit.
 
I'm all about practicing and improving my skill level, even bringing a CFI along once in awhile to help me increase my personal limits. I just don't think it's wise to create a bad situation out of a landing when there are other options, I don't care what the limit of the machine is!

If that makes me incompetent then so be it. Now if I had no option but to land in a 20kt direct crosswind, I'd go for it! But at this point in my less than spectacular logbook, I'm around 25kts total wind and about 12kt X/W component..... Hope I don't make any orphans:yikes:
 
I will say this: Every airline I've flown for has some sort of 'low time SIC' restrictions. The hours that qualify an SIC as 'low time' have varied slightly, but usually it's around 100 hours in type. Some of the limitations where the SIC can't take off or land;

-Wind shear reported
-Visability less than 3/4 SM
-Cross Wind greater than 15 kts
-Braking reported less than 'Good'
-Contaminated Runway
-Special Airports (think ASE or TEX)
-PIC Discretion
 
Tim, actually no that isn't my point, that's a point of capability and not at all what I am talking about. My point is not being willing to try and practice. If you don't have the confidence to take it down the path to the runway where you can bail out at any point in time, you are not mentally prepared to serve as PIC.
 
Tim, actually no that isn't my point, that's a point of capability and not at all what I am talking about. My point is not being willing to try and practice. If you don't have the confidence to take it down the path to the runway where you can bail out at any point in time, you are not mentally prepared to serve as PIC.

Even if you already know that the crosswind is beyond your skill level and you are not with a more skilled pilot at the time? OK
 
What part of the approach is dangerous? Like I said, I don't care if they land out of it or not, if they bail at the bottom and go elsewhere I have no issues.
"Bailing out at the bottom" can be a pretty tricky maneuver depending on how far someone takes it. There is always continuation bias too. What's the point of trying something you don't think you can do? There are already too many accidents involving people who thought they could do it but obviously couldn't. That's not to say that people shouldn't go out and get more practice to improve their skills, but on a given day if they don't think they can do something they shouldn't.
 
Even if you already know that the crosswind is beyond your skill level and you are not with a more skilled pilot at the time? OK

Yes, even if you already know you will not complete, you still practice because that is where you gain skill. BTW, the crosswind is not below your SKILL level, it is below your confidence level. It is the exact same skill to land in a 12kt crosswind as a 21kt crosswind; only difference is you more rudder and aileron action. The only crosswind limitation is the one the plane has when the rudder is on the floor and you can't get aligned, and the one you make up.

Every third approach and landing I do in my plane is done with an engine zero thrusted for practice or practicing another odd non standard/mock emergency type situation.
 
"Bailing out at the bottom" can be a pretty tricky maneuver depending on how far someone takes it. There is always continuation bias too. What's the point of trying something you don't think you can do? There are already too many accidents involving people who thought they could do it but obviously couldn't. That's not to say that people shouldn't go out and get more practice to improve their skills, but on a given day if they don't think they can do something they shouldn't.

If they don't think they should try something well within the retinue of the aircraft they have no business making a pleasure flight, they should be having a training flight. People don't crash and burn because they tried to do something the airplane could do, they crash and burn because they FAILED. If you already know you're going to fail, you have no business being PIC. How tough is any of this logic?
 
Yes, even if you already know you will not complete, you still practice because that is where you gain skill. BTW, the crosswind is not below your SKILL level, it is below your confidence level. It is the exact same skill to land in a 12kt crosswind as a 21kt crosswind; only difference is you more rudder and aileron action. The only crosswind limitation is the one the plane has when the rudder is on the floor and you can't get aligned, and the one you make up.

Every third approach and landing I do in my plane is done with an engine zero thrusted for practice or practicing another odd non standard/mock emergency type situation.

Ok, that actually makes sense. I guess the key is knowing how far to go and when to abort.
 
Ok, that actually makes sense. I guess the key is knowing how far to go and when to abort.

Have you not been in the flare when your instructor yelled "car" or "cow" and gon around from there? Have you never bounced a landing, tossed in the power and got the f- out of there? There is no difference in any of that just because the wind is coming from an angle.
 
People don't crash and burn because they tried to do something the airplane could do, they crash and burn because they FAILED. If you already know you're going to fail, you have no business being PIC. How tough is any of this logic?
People crash and burn because they either exceed the airplane's limitations or their own. Part of being PIC is having enough self-awareness of your own limitations to be able to make a decision based on those limitations.
 
People crash and burn because they either exceed the airplane's limitations or their own. Part of being PIC is having enough self-awareness of your own limitations to be able to make a decision based on those limitations.

Aircraft limitations I buy, they aren't in this discussion, they are a given.

As for the second sentence I concur as well, however if they have arbitrary limitations that are below standard conditions to be expected at any time any where, the proper PIC decision should be to get up to speed before being PIC. The decision being made to go flying for fun as PIC when they should be flying for practice is what is incorrect here.
 
Have you not been in the flare when your instructor yelled "car" or "cow" and gon around from there? Have you never bounced a landing, tossed in the power and got the f- out of there? There is no difference in any of that just because the wind is coming from an angle.

Yeah I basically see your point. I just think many low time pilots like myself have never been in a situation where we didn't have a choice of a more favorable runway.

As a result, we never go seeking crosswinds beyond what we are comfortable with so it takes most of us a long time to progress.
 
As a result, we never go seeking crosswinds beyond what we are comfortable with so it takes most of us a long time to progress.

Make a point of renting on a windy day, hiring an instructor, and reviewing your crosswind work. It's very basic to landing an airplane.
 
Yeah I basically see your point. I just think many low time pilots like myself have never been in a situation where we didn't have a choice of a more favorable runway.

As a result, we never go seeking crosswinds beyond what we are comfortable with so it takes most of us a long time to progress.

The 'Why' to that is the most important thing you have to get past. That's where working as a utility pilot comes in. If the conditions allow for the plane to do it, you 'gotta' or someone else will have your job next week. You don't get there after you take the job, you get there before through constant training and practice. There is not one flight I make that does not have me training and pushing and learning something new or reviewing something from hour 10, and I have over 2500hrs. It's not just something for new pilots to do.

People wanna dis on me and all that for 'super pilot ' attitude and what not, but it's just the willingness to go out and work and practice.
 
Aircraft limitations I buy, they aren't in this discussion, they are a given.

As for the second sentence I concur as well, however if they have arbitrary limitations that are below standard conditions to be expected at any time any where, the proper PIC decision should be to get up to speed before being PIC. The decision being made to go flying for fun as PIC when they should be flying for practice is what is incorrect here.
I agree that many pilots need more practice, in fact we all do. However that doesn't mean that you shouldn't use the common sense that you hopefully have and try to do something that you don't think you can do just because some book says you can do it.
 
I agree that many pilots need more practice, in fact we all do. However that doesn't mean that you shouldn't use the common sense that you hopefully have and try to do something that you don't think you can do just because some book says you can do it.

True, but they shouldn't be there to begin with. They take off with 4 links of a 6 link accident chain preformed. I'm not talking to them in mid flight here, I'm talking to them about what they need to dwell on a bit before they go flying again.
 
True, but they shouldn't be there to begin with. They take off with 4 links of a 6 link accident chain preformed. I'm not talking to them in mid flight here, I'm talking to them about what they need to dwell on a bit before they go flying again.
I thought that's what we were talking about, someone diverting because of 15 knots of crosswind at their destination.

While I think that pilots should be able to takeoff and land up to the demonstrated crosswind component of the airplane I don't see anything wrong in deciding not to go or going somewhere else if it exceeds their comfort level. We are, for the most part, talking about people who are doing this as a hobby. They don't need to be mission-driven.
 
That is what we are talking about, here on the ground. Rationalizing inability at flying because it is a hobby? Eeesh, ok, wonder what percentage of the NTSB Fatals are hobby flights?
 
Sorry, didn't see the disclaimer.
And, honestly, nobody ever taught me any rules of thumb for approximating xwind - apparently the instructors I've had didn't find it important enough to share with me. When I've cared to know the direct crosswind component, I've calculated it - typically, from the comfort of my desk. Otherwise, I've (rather literally) winged it. (similar to Tim's explanation)

Disclaimer is implied for all for us here, IMO. Calculating xwind component in-flight is something that, going out on a limb here (LOL), is a routine component of flight training. Question, how many CFI's here teach that?? The most common rules of thumb involve 60d taken as full value:

Rule of 1/3s: 30/45/60 (angles) = 1/3 1/2 1/1
Rule of 1/4s: Like a clock. 15/30/45/60 = 1/4 1/2 3/4 1/1
Rule of 1/6s: If you like doing math in your head (I do). 10/20/... = 1/6 ...
 
Rationalizing inability at flying because it is a hobby?
Inability is really only relative. Sure there are standards but they are also arbitrary. The real problem is exceeding what you think you can do by getting in over your head. Even professionals do that sometime.
 
Inability is really only relative. Sure there are standards but they are also arbitrary. The real problem is exceeding what you think you can do by getting in over your head. Even professionals do that sometime.

That's my point, when "over your head" is conditions that should be attainable on a PP checkride, then ANY FLIGHT is "over your head" at that point and the pilot should realize they require training and practice, not avoidance.
 
That's my point, when "over your head" is conditions that should be attainable on a PP checkride, then ANY FLIGHT is "over your head" at that point and the pilot should realize they require training and practice, not avoidance.
Where does it say you need to demonstrate a crosswind landing up to the max demonstrated crosswind component in the Private Pilot PTS?
 
That is what we are talking about, here on the ground. Rationalizing inability at flying because it is a hobby? Eeesh, ok, wonder what percentage of the NTSB Fatals are hobby flights?

It is not as black/white as you would paint it. It is not "able to operate aircraft at and beyond design limitations" vs "should not be flying". IMO.

Some folks are not comfortable with 60d banks, falling leaf stalls, 25+ kt crosswinds, ILS to minimums in the soup, and any number of other things.

That might not be you and it might not be me but the difference between us is that there is room in my sky for folks that have a lower threshold, set a limit, and honor that limit.
 
Where does it say you need to demonstrate a crosswind landing up to the max demonstrated crosswind component in the Private Pilot PTS?

That's why I asked what plane he was flying, and that is all I asked. What plane would one be in where 15 kts is Max?:dunno:
 
Oh, man... The max demonstrated crosswind can be low, if they didn't get a good day for Xwinds in their test schedule. I think the Symphony was maybe 9 knots, but I was quite comfortable with it in a 25 knot crosswind during my checkout.
 
That's why I asked what plane he was flying, and that is all I asked. What plane would one be in where 15 kts is Max?:dunno:
According to this, it's 12 knots for a C-152.

20120625-qeakm4ruwm273kyx4ukdfr6ap2.png
 
I've got a lot of hours in my plane. I've taken it above the max demonstrated x-wind limit (I've also had vortex generators installed that improve the low-speed handling). Heck, I've done downwind takeoffs (as recently as 2 weeks ago).

That said, there would be times that I might well not feel comfortable landing with a stiff crosswind at the max limit - those might include recency of flight, how long I'd been flying that day, passenger comfort (if I have a passenger), or pecularities to the specific airport involved (some valley airports can generate pretty good turbulance under certain wind conditions). Likewise known windshear conditions & runway condition (icy? Wet grass? Slick?).

It's all part of the decisionmaking process for each flight.

YMMV.
 
I'd agree with 50 hours.

btw, your 'not reading what I say' rant got me thinking. I know it just recently happened to me so I went looking, and sure enough...

Under 'Cleared For the Approach' I have a Missing VOR thread. The title is maybe what threw people but my first post clearly stated what my point was.

ME: Why's the compass rose not on the sectionals for COE VOR?
MOB: The VOR isn't missing.
ME: No, like the OP said, why's the COMPASS ROSE missing?
MOB: The compass rose isn't missing on the Jepp charts.
ME: No, compass rose on the SECTIONALS?
MOB: Well, the VOR symbol is there.
ME: Grrrrrr, I know the VOR symbol is there. The COMPASS ROSE...on the SECTIONAL?
MOB: Well, I've already said why.
ME: Face meet palm

Gosh, I thought the "mob" clearly pointed out that the Rose isn't required by anything in the chart legend.

(And every single VOR could be depicted without one on the next chart update if the charting folks felt like it.)

It's there for convenience, not a required item on the chart.

It's interesting to see your take on the replies, though.

;)
 
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