0/0 Takeoff

Meliss

Meliss

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Dec 25, 2011
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San Diego, CA
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goodjoojoo
I'm currently training for my PPL, and yesterday I did my first 0/0 takeoff. I flew entirely under foggles up until 500 feet before landing. In the air I find it is not hard for me to trust the instruments, but the takeoff was a bit trickier. I followed my heading well, he said I stayed on the center line, but it was really difficult for me to trust that I was. It almost didn't feel right. I imagine with more practice it will get better for me, though for the rest of my PPL training I doubt I will do another takeoff like that. I plan on training for my instrument rating right afterwards though.

What are your thoughts on 0/0 takeoffs? Has anyone done them under actual conditions? I think if the conditions were so that I could not even see the center line, and I was instrument rated, there's still no way I would opt to do it.
 
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It has to be pretty bad before you can't see the center line. I took off a couple of months ago in 1/16, VV001 (that means 1/16th mile visibility, 100ft of vertical visibility i.e. typical Bay Area low fog). I hadn't taken off into such low soup before but it was no trouble at all to do the ground run visually and then transition to instruments immediately after liftoff.

I'm with you on not going if you can't see the runway at all. How are you even going to taxi? Many would say that it's a bad idea to take off with wx below the approach mins at the departure airport, especially in a single. For Part 91, that's a personal judgement call that depends on the conditions at other fields nearby and your own comfort level. I wasn't too worried because my departure route was over water and EZs tend to ditch nicely.
 
It's that whole 'what if the engine quits at 50 AGL' or 'john deer tractor parked on the centerline' and similar stuff that bothers me.

Under the hood; discipline, skills, ability, etc, sure no problem.
Real world application; forgetaboutit.
 
Flying a takeoff purely on the DG seems to be fairly common during PPL training, though I don't think it's required. It always seemed pretty sketchy to me.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I never did anything close to this. Is this normal? It seems dangerous.
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My mom and dad both said they never did it before their instrument training, I don't think it's dangerous simulated since I had a CFII in the seat next to me. To do it in actual conditions though I imagine could be incredibly dangerous.
 
Typically, you do this once in training to show that it is possible, but give you an idea for why you probably don't want to do it.

Typically what happens is you can still see the centerline and can use that for takeoff, but as soon as you rotate you lose all visual reference, so you best be able to follow your instruments and transition to them quickly.
 
I think it as Ted (and others) point(s) out, it's a demonstration exercise...and I suggest....with little real-world application for the vast majority of us.
If you look at accidents in this phase of flight, I believe less are a result of straying from the runway. I think we might put more emphasis on ensuring we maintain a positive rate after lift-off, I have read of quite a few from this problem.
 
I've only done 0/0 takeoffs during my instrument training and it seemed pretty safe unless of course you have a vacuum failure or gyro malfunction.
 
I have never done a 0/0 but plenty of 600RVR, which is about 2 lines of the centerline.
 
Since this is basic training I'm thinking your CFI wanted to expose you to flying right at the edge of the envelope. Make no mistake, a 0/0 TO is right there for there is a very slim safety buffer. I think this was a one time demonstration.

I think the reason you feel more comfortable in the air is because you don't have the proximity of Solid Objects causing great concern. Too, the whole idea of flight is to aim for the middle of the air.

I have departed in 1/4 sm vis. That is the closest to 0/0 and it was close enough thank you.
 
Just realized this was for PP training.
I would have to wonder if a PP student wouldn't better spend their time brushing up on PP tasks. Can't say a one time session like this is over-reaching, but constantly pursuing things outside the PP curriculum would seem wasteful.
 
I have performed one takeoff in conditions which were very low, low enough that the ground controllers required that taxiing aircraft report their positions and issued progressive taxi instructions.

I took full-length on a 12,000' runway, and had the GPS zoomed down to the point I could have gotten back on to either of the parallels, plus I had the localizers for each runway dialed in on the two navs.

I was in the soup at 100', and (obviously) all turned out well. I was on top in the sun within ten minutes. Everything worked as it should have.

But I doubt I'd do it again.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Just realized this was for PP training.
I would have to wonder if a PP student wouldn't better spend their time brushing up on PP tasks. Can't say a one time session like this is over-reaching, but constantly pursuing things outside the PP curriculum would seem wasteful.
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I agree...
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Just realized this was for PP training.
I would have to wonder if a PP student wouldn't better spend their time brushing up on PP tasks. Can't say a one time session like this is over-reaching, but constantly pursuing things outside the PP curriculum would seem wasteful.
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Sigh... As I already stated this was a one time thing. We had to practice instruments yesterday[as per the curriculum], and because the day before had gone so well with our practice of the instruments, he let me do a 0/0 takeoff. I don't think it was wasteful.
 
Meliss said:
Sigh... As I already stated this was a one time thing. We had to practice instruments yesterday[as per the curriculum], and because the day before had gone so well with our practice of the instruments, he let me do a 0/0 takeoff. I don't think it was wasteful.
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Not if it counts towards your required three hours of instrument time which you need, which it sounds like you are saying it does.

Kimberly

PS - Sounds dangerous, but a really unique experience, like I said I haven't heard of this. I don't have any instruments to do this with (my HI has started moving 30 degrees off in 10 minutes).
 
I've done two with my CFII and had a discussion with him on the usefulness of it. I told him that I felt it was useless as I would not consider taking off in those conditions and have the chance of something mechanical causing a need to return to that same runway.
 
In case it hasn't been mentioned before, remember - if you have a problem you have to figure out how to get back down safely in that soup, maybe really quickly. Have you practiced that?

But hey, you roll the dice and take your chances...right? :eek:
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I never did anything close to this. Is this normal? It seems dangerous.
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Normal? Dunno. I did it a few times not long after getting my PP.

Seems dangerous? Why? The instructor/other pilot keeps you from doing anything that can break stuff. You also get a good lesson on nit picky directional control and transition to flight plus a bunch of object lessons you'll never forget.

IMHO: If you've done it before under the hood, you're far less likely to do it for real...because you know what is involved in maintaining that level of control and the consequences of a minor directional error since you have essentially been there before when you knew it was safe at the time. IOW, the book and discussions say "oh don't do this because it could potentially be hazardous though it's legal if you want to" vs your body and self preservation instincts saying "screw this, if you do this crap you'll likely die so park the canvas covered coffin and wait it out. You'll get home tomorrow though you might not if you leave right now."
 
fgcason said:
...
IMHO: If you've done it before under the hood, you're far less likely to do it for real...because you know what is involved in maintaining that level of control and the consequences of a minor directional error since you have essentially been there before when you knew it was safe at the time. IOW, the book and discussions say "oh don't do this because it could potentially be hazardous though it's legal if you want to" vs your body and self preservation instincts saying "screw this, if you do this crap you'll likely die so park the canvas covered coffin and wait it out. You'll get home tomorrow though you might not if you leave right now."
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I think most of us might agree with this. However, there seems to be at least one pilot who visits this board who takes the attitude of, "I've done it before with my instructor, so I know what to expect and I know that I can do it. So, in the future it won't be a big deal because I've already practiced it and am a better pilot for it."
 
I seldom do 0/0 take offs as described with instrument students. Maybe a couple just to demonstrate it. I am much more likely to have them put the hood/foggles/etc on and take off visually looking under the hood (essentially cheating with the hood) to simulate taking off with reduced visibility and then once airborne like 50 feet switching to instruments. Seems to me that this is a much more realistic scenerio for instrument pilots.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
A non-IR private pilot shouldn't even be thinking about taking off in these conditions. My CFI had me do one when I was a student, but it was, as noted, a demonstration. If you are considering taking off in conditions where you are worrying about getting back to the field if something goes wrong and you can't see due to clouds, fog or whatever, get your IR and fly on a clearance. At least you'll legally be in the soup. There's a reason the 135 and 121 folks can't do 0/0 takeoffs.
 
I've taken off in 0/0 a few times - a couple times in training and three or four more times after that. Taking off itself is uneventful. Finding your way to the runway can be more challenging.
 
I've never tried a 0/0 takeoff. Perhaps I'll try it with a CFII some time. I wouldn't do it in actual IFR. I agree with what Frank said.
 
0/0 takeoffs are a very serious issue in real life. I've flown them with foggles but not in actual and wouldn't. I think the main reason for doing a 0/0 under the hood is to develop confidence that the pupil can integrate setup, instrument interpretation and flight control manipulation skills.

As a CFII, I would not teach PP candidates a 0/0 takeoff. I don't think they're at the point where it is the best return for the investment. Even in night TO/LDG practice, I don't think such skills are used. Putting a person under the hood at, say, 400 feet on departure might be a better use of time.

I've done and even taught a few 0/0 landings at the IR level. Same deal, how to set up the airplane and control it with finesse and good situational awareness. However, even this is a doubtful way to spend time and money compared with other things one can do with hood training that transitions to real life flying when things get pretty scary.

One could make a very good case that even though a person might gain confidence and some skill development in 0/0 training, the time might be better invested in developing judgment. :)
 
JoeSelch said:
takes the attitude of, "I've done it before with my instructor, so I know what to expect and I know that I can do it. So, in the future it won't be a big deal because I've already practiced it and am a better pilot for it."
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I know the type you're talking about. There's at least one screaming bonkers idiot in every group that exists. What can you do? You can't protect everyone from themselves under all conditions. If you do, the lessons you will avoid teaching for that one person will be a major disadvantage of the rest of us. Sometimes Mr Darwin just has to get his steel core gravel coated baseball bat out and start swinging to get the lesson across to that one oddball individual.

Most of us that do the 0-0 takeoff lesson will get "Fook that shieet! Don't even think about it" from the experience. A few will think they are Batman and would have launched in 0-0 if they did the 0-0 training lesson takeoff or not. Personally I'm more afraid of a 0-0 takeoff now than before I did it. The majority of the rest of us likely are too..or would be if they did it. Then there's the occasional Mr Batman.

Note to Mr Batman: Once the engine quits and if, that's IF, you're high enough to get the nose over and stabilize airspeed, you are now in oblivion with no reference points. You do not know where the planet is at and that planet is intending to fall on you as hard as it possibly can without warning. Say hi to Mr Darwin for us.


I don't think they're at the point where it is the best return for the investment.
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Just because something can not be quantified in a box on a form, and often in terms of money or in a preprogrammed package, does not necessarily mean it's not important or isn't advantageous beyond the object lesson of the time. It's all those little details outside the intended lesson that takes the learning process from being about passing an exam to actually knowing the material.
 
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ajstoner21 said:
I've never tried a 0/0 takeoff. Perhaps I'll try it with a CFII some time. I wouldn't do it in actual IFR. I agree with what Frank said.
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Not even with a multi engine airplane with good single engine performance and a takeoff alternate?
 
:yeahthat:

That was awesome. I loved the description of most of our reactions to it. Exactly right.
 
Oops. Posted at the same time. My response was to the previous post, just to be clear.
 
My CFI had me do a 0/0 takeoff under the hood during PP training. It was a demonstration and confidence builder.

I can't envision a situation where I would ever want to do one for real.

He had me do a lot of stuff that wasn't required. Stalls at night without panel lights. Stalls under the hood. Night landings without landing lights. Landings with the airspeed covered up.
 
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kimberlyanne546 said:
I never did anything close to this. Is this normal? It seems dangerous.
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No, it's not normal, and yes, it's dangerous. It's not part of any FAA syllabus or practical test standard, and there's no practical use for it. If you can't see that far in front of you, you can't even get to the runway, so why bother trying it with a vision restricing device after you get there? Even if you do try it, and manage to stay on the runway, what about the cow in the middle of the runway which you feel before you see? And if you really want to find out what the FAA thinks about it, just try doing it on a practical test with an FAA Inspector in the right seat.

All in all, I just don't think I see how this as a "confidence builder," just a "dumb stunt."
 
Mason said:
My CFI had me do a 0/0 takeoff under the hood during PP training. It was a demonstration and confidence builder.

I can't envision a situation where I would ever want to do one for real.

He had me do a lot of stuff that wasn't required. Stalls at night without panel lights. Stalls under the hood. Night landings without landing lights. Landings with the airspeed covered up.
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Those last things are all good things to do, as it's entirely conceivable that you might have to do one of those things someday as the result of a problem developing in flight.

And since the Hovitos Indians won't be able to find you in zero-zero fog, even the "Indiana Jones" scenario doesn't apply to zero-zero takeoffs.
 
Even for instrument students, I don't see much use for "0/0 takeoff training" except to give them a feel for what it might be like to abort a landing when it goes from minimums to zero on final, or on rollout... or maybe to prepare for making an emergency landing in such conditions. It'd be marginally safer than actually approaching the runway from the air in such conditions. But to even consider actually taking off in such conditions, IR or no IR, is pretty stupid, IMHO. When would this be necessary for the average pilot, or worth the risk (outside of the realm of macho fantasies)?

I never took off under the hood during my training, but I did quite a few takeoffs, landings, and touch-and-gos at night, often at a field where once you climb above the runway lights, you're basically on instruments (assuming no moonlight or overcast). Seems a lot more useful for someone who should not be out there flying in IMC or near-IMC, but very likely to be flying at night.
 
Ron Levy said:
No, it's not normal, and yes, it's dangerous. It's not part of any FAA syllabus or practical test standard, and there's no practical use for it. If you can't see that far in front of you, you can't even get to the runway, so why bother trying it with a vision restricing device after you get there? Even if you do try it, and manage to stay on the runway, what about the cow in the middle of the runway which you feel before you see? And if you really want to find out what the FAA thinks about it, just try doing it on a practical test with an FAA Inspector in the right seat.

All in all, I just don't think I see how this as a "confidence builder," just a "dumb stunt."
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Like landing at Cat III ILS minimums?
 
Sac Arrow said:
Like landing at Cat III ILS minimums?
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How is that even equivalent to teaching students to take off under the hood?

You would never do a true 0/0 takeoff anyway since there would be no way to get out to the runway. There needs to be some visibility. Someplace might be reporting 0/0 but that's only because it is below the lowest visibility they can measure.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Like landing at Cat III ILS minimums?
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YOU don't land at CAT III minimums. OTTO lands the airplane. You then hope you can find the taxiway or at least the follow-me.

Edit: Not an airline guy so I don't know if HUD advances have allowed hands-on flying down to the CATIII world.
 
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