“Resume own Nav” while IFR

[luvflyin]

Maybe all the holiday Cheer has my memory malfunctioning, but I hit an unexpected situation yesterday and would appreciate some input.

Setup: Flying IFR in VMC from KAAA to KBBB. Flight plan included a long segment on a Victor Airway. This occurred during that segment. Flight segment was over mountainous terrain, and my altitude gave me (just barely) the 2,000 feet of terrain clearance.

I was cruising along V100 at my assigned altitude going from waypoint to waypoint on the airway. The following happens;

1. ATC : “N2468, Turn Left 20 Degrees for Traffic”
2. N2468 : ”Left 20 Degrees N2468”
3. I Turn 20 Degrees left.
5. Time Passes. .and passes.
6. ATC : “N2468 Resume own Nav, and switch to (new controller) on 23.15“
7. N2468 “ Own Nav, and over to 23.15, N2468”

So I check my GPS, and find an interesting situation. I was traveling from waypoint Alpha to waypoint Bravo when I was vectored. My Vector flight now has me in between waypoints Bravo and Charlie laterally. Flying to Bravo would be going backwards, Charlie would be really inefficient, so I select Direct to Waypoint Delta. I then check in with the new controller:

1. “N2468, Level 6,000, Direct Delta”. He is confused by my ’Direct Delta’ but simply asks which approach I want at KBBB, and sends me Direct to an IAF.

Later on the ground I replay this, and wonder if I made a mistake, in selecting Direct Delta. I could see where when you are outside of the airway, obstacles clearances are not guaranteed. I knew (because of my avionics, general familiarity of the area, AND VMC ) I was assured terrain clearance in this situation, but I could imagine a situation where that would not be the case.

Short question is : When told “Resume Own Nav” when in this strange location in relation to a airway, what would be the expected return to the airway?

Thanks!

Controller was wrong. When initiating the vector they are supposed to tell you what to expect. Like expect direct [fix], expect to join [airway], expect to resume [SID][Arrival]. If they had done that you would have know what to do if comm was lost. But that’s unlikely. When they are done with the vector they are supposed to tell you one of those things then say ‘resume own navigation.’ But they didn’t. In that case you are supposed to ask and clarify. Not guess.

 

[luvflyin]

If it mattered, the controller would have been more specific.

If you are unsure, request whatever it is that you want.

In RADAR environments, a vector off course almost always ends in a clearance direct to a downline fix. If you want to rejoin an airway quicker, request that instead.

From the P/CG:

RESUME OWN NAVIGATION− Used by ATC to advise a pilot to resume his/her own navigational responsibility. It is issued after completion of a radar vector or when radar contact is lost while the aircraft is being radar vectored.​

In your case, "Resume own navigation", doesn't specify how to return to your route. As long as you do something reasonable, the controller can't complain. If it mattered, he would have given a specific clearance.

He can complain, but has no right to if he was negligent in giving proper instructions, which it appears happened here.

 

[luvflyin]

Here’s a rough sketch of the situation;

Choices are;
Fly Backwards to Bravo
Fly Lateral to Charlie
Fly Forward to Delta.

Fourth choice. Push the button and ask the controller. Or include the Fix in your read back. Like ‘going direct Delta, own nav.’

 

[luvflyin]

Maybe all the holiday Cheer has my memory malfunctioning, but I hit an unexpected situation yesterday and would appreciate some input.

Setup: Flying IFR in VMC from KAAA to KBBB. Flight plan included a long segment on a Victor Airway. This occurred during that segment. Flight segment was over mountainous terrain, and my altitude gave me (just barely) the 2,000 feet of terrain clearance.

I was cruising along V100 at my assigned altitude going from waypoint to waypoint on the airway. The following happens;

1. ATC : “N2468, Turn Left 20 Degrees for Traffic”
2. N2468 : ”Left 20 Degrees N2468”
3. I Turn 20 Degrees left.
5. Time Passes. .and passes.
6. ATC : “N2468 Resume own Nav, and switch to (new controller) on 23.15“
7. N2468 “ Own Nav, and over to 23.15, N2468”

So I check my GPS, and find an interesting situation. I was traveling from waypoint Alpha to waypoint Bravo when I was vectored. My Vector flight now has me in between waypoints Bravo and Charlie laterally. Flying to Bravo would be going backwards, Charlie would be really inefficient, so I select Direct to Waypoint Delta. I then check in with the new controller:

1. “N2468, Level 6,000, Direct Delta”. He is confused by my ’Direct Delta’ but simply asks which approach I want at KBBB, and sends me Direct to an IAF.

Later on the ground I replay this, and wonder if I made a mistake, in selecting Direct Delta. I could see where when you are outside of the airway, obstacles clearances are not guaranteed. I knew (because of my avionics, general familiarity of the area, AND VMC ) I was assured terrain clearance in this situation, but I could imagine a situation where that would not be the case.

Short question is : When told “Resume Own Nav” when in this strange location in relation to a airway, what would be the expected return to the airway?

Thanks!

AIM 5-5-2 a. 3.
3. Requests clarification or amendment, as appropriate, any time a clearance is not fully understood or considered unacceptable from a safety standpoint.

 

[luvflyin]

That was the other aspect of this. The Controller flip at the same time as the 'own nav' instruction. My thought there was 'Do I ask him for clarification on where to go ( Charlie or Delta, I never considered Bravo) or do I just pick one ( he did say 'own nav' ) and let the next controller know my choice. I think I'm going to submit this situation to the opposing bases podcast and see what they think!

Do it. I’d like to hear what they say. If they do, can you come back and tell us what episode. And if you don’t mind give the time on the recording where it starts.

 

[malcoholio]

Do it. I’d like to hear what they say. If they do, can you come back and tell us what episode. And if you don’t mind give the time on the recording where it starts.

Will do. I submitted a couple of days ago, no response yet.

 

[Peter Anderson]

Will do. I submitted a couple of days ago, no response yet.

They usually take a few weeks sometimes months to get to them. They will also send you an email when it will be in air if it makes it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[DJTorrente]

I'm sorry it took me so long to think of this, but have you considered filing an ASRS report with NASA? (https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/) You're now past 10 days, so you can't use filing the form as immunity from any sanction, but is seems unlikely that any sanction is in the cards for you. The ASRS system is specifically created to highlight safety issues which can be later addressed -- the immunity is just an inducement for pilots to file.

 

[Clip4]

Maybe all the holiday Cheer has my memory malfunctioning, but I hit an unexpected situation yesterday and would appreciate some input.

Setup: Flying IFR in VMC from KAAA to KBBB. Flight plan included a long segment on a Victor Airway. This occurred during that segment. Flight segment was over mountainous terrain, and my altitude gave me (just barely) the 2,000 feet of terrain clearance.

I was cruising along V100 at my assigned altitude going from waypoint to waypoint on the airway. The following happens;

1. ATC : “N2468, Turn Left 20 Degrees for Traffic”
2. N2468 : ”Left 20 Degrees N2468”
3. I Turn 20 Degrees left.
5. Time Passes. .and passes.
6. ATC : “N2468 Resume own Nav, and switch to (new controller) on 23.15“
7. N2468 “ Own Nav, and over to 23.15, N2468”

So I check my GPS, and find an interesting situation. I was traveling from waypoint Alpha to waypoint Bravo when I was vectored. My Vector flight now has me in between waypoints Bravo and Charlie laterally. Flying to Bravo would be going backwards, Charlie would be really inefficient, so I select Direct to Waypoint Delta. I then check in with the new controller:

1. “N2468, Level 6,000, Direct Delta”. He is confused by my ’Direct Delta’ but simply asks which approach I want at KBBB, and sends me Direct to an IAF.

Later on the ground I replay this, and wonder if I made a mistake, in selecting Direct Delta. I could see where when you are outside of the airway, obstacles clearances are not guaranteed. I knew (because of my avionics, general familiarity of the area, AND VMC ) I was assured terrain clearance in this situation, but I could imagine a situation where that would not be the case.

Short question is : When told “Resume Own Nav” when in this strange location in relation to a airway, what would be the expected return to the airway?

Thanks!

Maybe all the holiday Cheer has my memory malfunctioning, but I hit an unexpected situation yesterday and would appreciate some input.

Setup: Flying IFR in VMC from KAAA to KBBB. Flight plan included a long segment on a Victor Airway. This occurred during that segment. Flight segment was over mountainous terrain, and my altitude gave me (just barely) the 2,000 feet of terrain clearance.

I was cruising along V100 at my assigned altitude going from waypoint to waypoint on the airway. The following happens;

1. ATC : “N2468, Turn Left 20 Degrees for Traffic”
2. N2468 : ”Left 20 Degrees N2468”
3. I Turn 20 Degrees left.
5. Time Passes. .and passes.
6. ATC : “N2468 Resume own Nav, and switch to (new controller) on 23.15“
7. N2468 “ Own Nav, and over to 23.15, N2468”

So I check my GPS, and find an interesting situation. I was traveling from waypoint Alpha to waypoint Bravo when I was vectored. My Vector flight now has me in between waypoints Bravo and Charlie laterally. Flying to Bravo would be going backwards, Charlie would be really inefficient, so I select Direct to Waypoint Delta. I then check in with the new controller:

1. “N2468, Level 6,000, Direct Delta”. He is confused by my ’Direct Delta’ but simply asks which approach I want at KBBB, and sends me Direct to an IAF.

Later on the ground I replay this, and wonder if I made a mistake, in selecting Direct Delta. I could see where when you are outside of the airway, obstacles clearances are not guaranteed. I knew (because of my avionics, general familiarity of the area, AND VMC ) I was assured terrain clearance in this situation, but I could imagine a situation where that would not be the case.

Short question is : When told “Resume Own Nav” when in this strange location in relation to a airway, what would be the expected return to the airway?

Thanks!

The issue was you let the controller issue a vector for traffic and forget you.

 

[luvflyin]

The issue was you let the controller issue a vector for traffic and forget you.

It doesn't sound like the Controller forgot him. He did tell him to resume own nav and shipped him to the next sector. What he failed to do was issue correct instructions. Resume own nav is not intended to be a stand alone instruction. It comes after things like join airway/radial etc. The pilot failed when he didn't clarify what to do.

 

[Steamflyer]

After resume own nav, only needed to say "Thanks, resume own nav. We're on a vector - request direct Delta." You have to have SA and sometimes ATC helps you, sometimes you help them. Similar to when, thanks to today's technology, you can see the current vector is going to take you through final and no instructions to intersect have been given. Query and fix it.

 

[malcoholio]

UPDATE!
I sent the situation to the Opposing Bases Podcast Crew (RH & AG), and while they did not select my question for the podcast, they did get back to me in email. Here was their response;

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The controller made a mistake in using that phraseology for your situation. They should have said “turn right direct Delta, resume own navigation” or simply “turn right direct Delta”. You did the right thing in my opinion and the confusion was the controller may not know every fix along the airway since they are so rarely used. Our Victor airways have a ton of fixes which we memorized years ago but have since been purged from the iceberg, even if they are in our airspace.​

​

If this situation comes up again, just clarify with ATC “which fix would you like me to rejoin the airway” is totally fine. If they didn’t realize you were on an airway (entirely possible if you were arriving in their airspace since they just have an arrival ticket with the destination airport and no routing), this is a perfect chance for them to issue a clearance to an IAF like they did.​

​

I hope this helps! -RH​

​

Thank you for listening and we hope you enjoy the show!

​

Romeo Hotel and Alpha Golf​

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Seems like a decent mix of what I have been reading here. I made a good call, but more clarification (next time) would be better. Thanks all for the good discussion.

 

[Standardrate]

Good question!
I’m working my way through the old OB episodes and this was discussed on OB098. Having once had a similar “resume own nav”/“resume course“ situation, I was keen to hear their take on this. In my case, I should have keyed up and asked for clarification.