Dinged on a Non Published TFR

Ron Levy said:
If anyone knows of someone snagged for flying at 2500 AGL 2 miles from a sporting event without violating some other rule or airspace, I'd like to hear about it.
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Not sure, but the straight in approach to Rwy 5 at PUW puts you basically right over the WSU football stadium. Now, for me, that not a problem because I have season tickets and will be in the stadium and not flying over it, but it puts a crimp on people in the pattern during the game. I'm pretty sure the airport is less than 3 miles from the stadium. No tower, either. Personally, now that it's an option for me, if I were flying into PUW during a game I'd be on an IFR clearance and not worry about it, but...
 
Anthony said:
Somebody (hello AOPA/+Congressmen) needs to rattle the FAA's cage and make them actually do something to help us stay out of trouble instead of setting traps for us. What a competely worthless agency.
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AOPA is worthless on this and many other issues. That is why my membership lapsed and will not be renewed.
 
Palmpilot said:
Excuse me sir, but in a republic, "whining," as you call it, is how we get things changed.
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Only if you whine to the right people. We aren't them.

Don't get me wrong. I think that a blanket TFR like this is BS. But I know the FAA didn't invent it, didn't want to promulgate it, and has no way of knowing (with any more accuracy than we do) the game schedules.

They got handed this by legislative fiat, so they published it. Go complain to or fire your congressman.
 
So how long does it take a plane to go 3001 feet straight down? About 20 seconds. That is plenty of response time. This is really an effective TFR
 
TMetzinger said:
Only if you whine to the right people. We aren't them.
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An individual complaining to Congress usually doesn't carry much weight; it's necessary to convince other voters that there is a problem. Furthermore the feedback one gets in discussions like this can help people refine what the message to Congress should be.
 
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'Tis BS but it has been in effect for a number of years. It is rather surprizing the FAA has not found a way to help us out after all this time. Either find someone to champion changing it or live with it. TS, isn't it.
aeroplanner.com does show the stadiums with a bright green circle. skyvector.com, duat.com, and duats.com do not show them.
I am not a sports fan and know only a few of the local stadiums. It is a unrealistic requirement to hold a pilot responsible for these if the FAA can't give him help.
The best one can do is identify these on your local sectional (they aren't there yet) and plan around them. Set up to fail, we are.
 
EdFred said:
What I find ironic is the "only official briefing" must come from DUAT(S) or FSS, but they won't give us all the information. We are left to look it up online - from an unofficial source.
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What information is the FSS not giving you?
 
I've yet to hear anyone cite an "official briefing" of a "Congested Area", yet people still fly without that, at risk of an FAA bust, all the time.
 
This is a worrisome thought! I wouldn't know a sports team if they all showed up for dinner. Except for the little symbols on my handheld GPS, I have NO idea where the stadiums are or when/who/what they're playing. Don't much care. I suppose it's a darn good thing I rarely cruise below 9000 feet, and not very often VFR. I do love the slow, barely over treetops flying, but it doesn't make much sense in a Mooney 20K, and with all the ways for the unwary to get in trouble, maybe that's a good thing.
 
Henning said:
:confused: Who got busted?
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Define "Busted"

So far there is no indication that the person who was dinged has has there certificate revoked for life, but I'm not going to take that as "go ahead and bust the TFR, nothing will happen."
 
mikea said:
See a problem here?

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Schau....99165,-88.111553&fspn=0.009744,0.017467&z=16

(You also have to do aerial back flips to avoid the one loud mouth neighbor to the east.)
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Not really.

Unless the Schaumburg Flyers are a new MLB team, and that ball park has a much larger seating capacity than it appears, it's not subject to the FDC NOTAM at all.

Just looked, and no...the Schaumburg Flyers have not joined either the American or National League, and the ball park's capacity (6,000) is 20% of the 30,000 required to trigger the TFR.
 
JeffDG said:
Not really.

Unless the Schaumburg Flyers are a new MLB team, and that ball park has a much larger seating capacity than it appears, it's not subject to the FDC NOTAM at all.

Just looked, and no...the Schaumburg Flyers have not joined either the American or National League, and the ball park's capacity (6,000) is 20% of the 30,000 required to trigger the TFR.
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I am pretty sure that the Schaumburg Flyers went out of business a few years ago.

What I find confusing is trying to figure out if a college team is Division 1.
 
ScottM said:
I am pretty sure that the Schaumburg Flyers went out of business a few years ago.

What I find confusing is trying to figure out if a college team is Division 1.
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Division 1 NCAA is football only, so no need to worry about any other sports.
 
ScottM said:
I am pretty sure that the Schaumburg Flyers went out of business a few years ago.

What I find confusing is trying to figure out if a college team is Division 1.
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Well, actually they had a 2010 season, but yes, I understand that they are currently out of business. http://www.flyersbaseball.com

And I'm like Amelia. I don't follow sports, have no idea what cities even have professional sports teams (besides the obvious ones), and don't know seating capacities. Like her, though, I typically cruise above 3000' AGL unless I'm in the local area. I shouldn't have to count on that, though. If the FAA can enforce the TFRs, they should be responsible for letting us know when and where they are. The rules were written to keep those who already knew, i.e. the banner tow operators, from operating in the vicinity. Since that's who they had in mind when they wrote the legislation, they apparently didn't consider how to tell the rest of us about times/locations.
 
gprellwitz said:
Well, actually they had a 2010 season, but yes, I understand that they are currently out of business. http://www.flyersbaseball.com

And I'm like Amelia. I don't follow sports, have no idea what cities even have professional sports teams (besides the obvious ones), and don't know seating capacities. Like her, though, I typically cruise above 3000' AGL unless I'm in the local area. I shouldn't have to count on that, though. If the FAA can enforce the TFRs, they should be responsible for letting us know when and where they are. The rules were written to keep those who already knew, i.e. the banner tow operators, from operating in the vicinity. Since that's who they had in mind when they wrote the legislation, they apparently didn't consider how to tell the rest of us about times/locations.
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Again I ask: Where is the FAA "official" briefing source for what a Congested Area is? Why all the heartburn about this rule not being fully briefed by the FAA, and not that one?
 
gprellwitz said:
And I'm like Amelia. I don't follow sports, have no idea what cities even have professional sports teams
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Well thank goodness we live in Chicago where, at least according to my observations, all our sports teams are bush league amateurs. :D

gprellwitz said:
(besides the obvious ones), and don't know seating capacities. Like her, though, I typically cruise above 3000' AGL unless I'm in the local area.
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ditto. The other weekend when we flew down to Indy to meet you and Leslie, etc. my first clue that there was a giant NASCAR race was when I looked down and saw all the people and the Goodyear blimp over the speedway. Heck I even forgot that there was a speedway in the Chicago area.


gprellwitz said:
I shouldn't have to count on that, though. If the FAA can enforce the TFRs, they should be responsible for letting us know when and where they are. The rules were written to keep those who already knew, i.e. the banner tow operators, from operating in the vicinity. Since that's who they had in mind when they wrote the legislation, they apparently didn't consider how to tell the rest of us about times/locations.
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Agree with all of that.
 
JeffDG said:
Again I ask: Where is the FAA "official" briefing source for what a Congested Area is? Why all the heartburn about this rule not being fully briefed by the FAA, and not that one?
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A congested area is a place where someone complains r an accident happens. The FAA can't predict that.

Thay can, however, predict when stadium TFRs are likely to happen. And they absolutly do know when they are active. Why all the heartburn about having the FAA letting us pilots in on the secret?
 
JeffDG said:
Can you quote a FAA source for that definition?
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They make it up as they go along.

Example: Hit a wire over a river in the middle of nowhere during a charity flight? Congested area.

Complaint example: A cluster of 4 houses complains about crop dusting noise? Congested area.

Why do you object to the FAA letting us in on what they know about TFR's?
 
JeffDG said:
I've yet to hear anyone cite an "official briefing" of a "Congested Area", yet people still fly without that, at risk of an FAA bust, all the time.
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And the arbitrary after-the-fact way the FAA decides what's a congested area is another thing that needs to change.
 
JeffDG said:
Division 1 NCAA is football only, so no need to worry about any other sports.
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Not true. Football is Division 1A, 1AA, etc.

Basketball is Division 1, Division 2, etc.

Unfortunately, the two divisions do not necessarily align....and therein lies part of my confusion. I can't really stand College Football, so how the hell am I supposed to keep up with 300+ different schools that may or may not be D1?
 
SkyHog said:
Not true. Football is Division 1A, 1AA, etc.

Basketball is Division 1, Division 2, etc.

Unfortunately, the two divisions do not necessarily align....and therein lies part of my confusion. I can't really stand College Football, so how the hell am I supposed to keep up with 300+ different schools that may or may not be D1?
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Actually, it's not even called Division I anymore. It's called FBS and FCS, Football Bowl Series, and Football Championship Series.
 
JeffDG said:
Again I ask: Where is the FAA "official" briefing source for what a Congested Area is? Why all the heartburn about this rule not being fully briefed by the FAA, and not that one?
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Actually a lot of pilots (self included) also complain about the definition or identification, or lack thereof, of "congested area." I'm sure a search of past threads might dredge up a complaint or three. But this thread is about one particular heartburn. :D
 
EdFred said:
Actually, it's not even called Division I anymore. It's called FBS and FCS, Football Bowl Series, and Football Championship Series.
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Well, then the TFR doesn't apply. It applies only to Division I NCAA Football. If there is no such thing as "Division I NCAA Football", then that portion of the NOTAM is moot.:D
COMMENCING ONE HOUR BEFORE THE SCHEDULED TIME OF THE EVENT UNTIL ONE HOUR AFTER THE END OF THE EVENT. ALL AIRCRAFT AND PARACHUTE OPERATIONS ARE PROHIBITED WITHIN A 3 NMR UP TO AND INCLUDING 3000 FT AGL OF ANY STADIUM HAVING A SEATING CAPACITY OF 30,000 OR MORE PEOPLE WHERE EITHER A REGULAR OR POST SEASON MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL, NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE, OR NCAA DIVISION ONE FOOTBALL GAME IS OCCURRING
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Henning said:
???? The FSS spoon feeds me all the FDC NOTAMs. They even ask me if I want them every time I call for a "Standard Briefing".

BTW, Yes, I still call. I do my briefings on the phone. I will say that after the initial teething pains of the takeover, the service has been good and I have not seen a "hold time" to getting to a briefer in years. The "Local Knowledge" that the FSS used to bring to the table is for the most part lost now. Having a briefer say "The forecast for that time says this, but that's not going to be right because this other thing is happening. I'd suggest you look at rerouting through this other area..." hasn't happened now in over a decade and a half. OTOH, it's not as vital anymore either as we have even greater access to real time information now in flight.

I have never not been offered the FDC NOTAMS on a call. My response is "You got anything that'll get me busted?"
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If they say "no" and there is a qualifying sporting event, you're screwed because Flight Service doesn't have anything about the games themselves.
 
JeffDG said:
So, are you proposing we hire FAA employees to attend each of these games and report back?

And on the "all times subject to change", the NOTAM specifies that the TFR is in place one hour before the scheduled start.

An excellent source for the end of games would be that ADF that you haven't gotten around to removing from your pannel!:idea:
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Why not require the organization responsible for the event (school, NCAA, NASCAAR, etc.) to notify the FAA of the the location and time prior to each event so a NOTAM could be put into the system? They could also advise if the event is cancelled or when it ends.

EDIT: I should have read through the entire thread before posting.
Palmpilot said:
I think Congress should make it the responsibility of the organizers of these events to report the hours and location to the FAA at least 24 hours in advance. If they don't do this, then they don't get a TFR.
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JeffDG said:
Again I ask: Where is the FAA "official" briefing source for what a Congested Area is? Why all the heartburn about this rule not being fully briefed by the FAA, and not that one?
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"Congested" is open to interpretation. Sporting event TFRs are not. They exist in a defined airspace during a defined time periods. The problem is that the FAA won't tell pilots where and when they are.
 
kkoran said:
Why not require the organization responsible for the event (school, NCAA, NASCAAR, etc.) to notify the FAA of the the location and time prior to each event so a NOTAM could be put into the system? They could also advise if the event is cancelled or when it ends.

EDIT: I should have read through the entire thread before posting.
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Great minds think alike!
 
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