Dinged on a Non Published TFR

[Everskyward]

It is what it is. Unless you can get Congress to force a change, either learn how to find the games (the AOPA web site is a big help) or accept the consequences if you buzz a sporting event.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

So, are you proposing we hire FAA employees to attend each of these games and report back?

And on the "all times subject to change", the NOTAM specifies that the TFR is in place one hour before the scheduled start.

An excellent source for the end of games would be that ADF that you haven't gotten around to removing from your pannel!

Someone who works for the FAA knows about this stuff - otherwise you could not get busted. So apparently, no one else needs to be hired. Right? Or wrong?

And, the FAA already has the information. Right? Or wrong?

They just elect to not share the information that they have. Right? Or wrong?

 

[EdFred]

So, are you proposing we hire FAA employees to attend each of these games and report back?

And on the "all times subject to change", the NOTAM specifies that the TFR is in place one hour before the scheduled start.

An excellent source for the end of games would be that ADF that you haven't gotten around to removing from your pannel!

No need to attend. They can have all that information at their fingertips.

Never had an ADF in my plane since I've had it.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

accept the consequences if you buzz a sporting event.

It is what it is. But chugging along at 2500 AGL 2 miles away hardly qualifies as a "buzz job"...

 

[EdFred]

Someone who works for the FAA knows about this stuff - otherwise you could not get busted. So apparently, no one else needs to be hired. Right? Or wrong?

And, the FAA already has the information. Right? Or wrong?

They just elect to not share the information that they have. Right? Or wrong?

Exactly.

 

[drizzt76]

I like the "security theater" comment. I couldn't agree more. It does nothing to promote "security". Do they have AA batteries that shoot down anyone who violates the TFR....a "bad guy" can still plow into a stadium. I do understand that if he survives he will get dinged on violating a TFR. Okay, it is for the banner towing people...I get that....so make it applicable to banner towing operations....not everyone else. 91.119 would still apply (BTW the helicopter exception changed). Go get them AOPA....ahh never mind.

 

[Bob Noel]

It is what it is. Unless you can get Congress to force a change, either learn how to find the games (the AOPA web site is a big help) or accept the consequences if you buzz a sporting event.

It is what it is....and it is unquestionably BS.

Flying at 2800' AGL 2 miles from a stadium constitutes "buzz a sporting event." That's horse manure and you should know it.

Imagine what would happen if the speed limit around schools was 20 mph anytime there was a school event, including an evening event or extra days in the summer or on a Saturday. Drivers can learn to read the local newspaper for every school they might drive by even if their intended route wouldn't bring them anywhere near a school.

 

[JeffDG]

Someone who works for the FAA knows about this stuff - otherwise you could not get busted. So apparently, no one else needs to be hired. Right? Or wrong?

And, the FAA already has the information. Right? Or wrong?

They just elect to not share the information that they have. Right? Or wrong?

They can check it retrospectively, but that doesn't mean they know about it when it actually happens.

And based on the standard here, they should know the end time of every game when you receive your briefing, which is entirely impossible, particularly when you get your briefing before the game starts.

 

[Skylane81E]

Someone who works for the FAA knows about this stuff - otherwise you could not get busted. So apparently, no one else needs to be hired. Right? Or wrong?

And, the FAA already has the information. Right? Or wrong?

They just elect to not share the information that they have. Right? Or wrong?

Can I get an AMEN!??!!

 

[Skylane81E]

They can check it retrospectively, but that doesn't mean they know about it when it actually happens.

And based on the standard here, they should know the end time of every game when you receive your briefing, which is entirely impossible, particularly when you get your briefing before the game starts.

They can tell you the game will happen, better than not knowing at all.

 

[JeffDG]

I like the "security theater" comment. I couldn't agree more. It does nothing to promote "security". Do they have AA batteries that shoot down anyone who violates the TFR....a "bad guy" can still plow into a stadium. I do understand that if he survives he will get dinged on violating a TFR. Okay, it is for the banner towing people...I get that....so make it applicable to banner towing operations....not everyone else. 91.119 would still apply (BTW the helicopter exception changed). Go get them AOPA....ahh never mind.

The purpose of the TFR is to keep banner tows away from the stadia (and Disney parks as well...basically the same TFR, but 24/7). Whether that's a legitimate purpose for a TFR, I don't particularly think that it is, but until you get Congress to step in, it's a reality.

 

[Anthony]

Somebody (hello AOPA/+Congressmen) needs to rattle the FAA's cage and make them actually do something to help us stay out of trouble instead of setting traps for us. What a competely worthless agency.

 

[JeffDG]

They can tell you the game will happen, better than not knowing at all.

Honestly, I can think of better things FAA employees can do with their time (and hence my tax money) than looking up sports schedules that I can look up just fine all by myself.

 

[Pilawt]

Isn't it a whole lot easier to fly at 3,000 AGl instead of 2800 for VFR flight seeing?

That would depend on how high the floor of the overlaying class B is.

Good point. Most of the affected stadia are in/around big cities, and so are most Bravo areas.

Dodger Stadium in Los Angeles is a case in point -- it's below a 2,500 MSL Bravo floor, with a range of hills up to 2,000 MSL five miles to the north and the KBUR Charlie surface area just beyond that. It's hard to fly VFR from El Monte to Santa Monica without going right over the stadium below 2,500 MSL

 

[Sac Arrow]

This is complete bull****t and I badly wish this would be challenged in court.

There is a legal doctrine about using "a reasonable standard of care as normally exercised in the industry or profession" that applies to almost every venue. Calling FSS for briefings, asking for Notams, etc... falls within that category. Knowing where every single, uncharted high school and college stadium is goes beyond that. Well beyond that.

 

[Skylane81E]

Honestly, I can think of better things FAA employees can do with their time (and hence my tax money) than looking up sports schedules that I can look up just fine all by myself.

But they do know, and I'll gladly let them spend my tax money to make a phone call to flight service to tell them.

And yes they know as they happen as well, look at the story in the OP, if they didn't know as it was happening he wouldn't have gotten such imediate feedback uppon landing.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Honestly, I can think of better things FAA employees can do with their time (and hence my tax money) than looking up sports schedules that I can look up just fine all by myself.

So, the FAA does not already know about the events and I don't need to worry about getting busted for violating the TFR next time I fly up the Detroit River?

Works for me.

 

[DutchessFlier]

Well...I'm glad this set off good discussion, and thanks for no flaming or such. The issue isn't whining or buzzing stadiums, the issue is what do we have to know, when do we know it, and where do we get information that impacts our ability to fly. Since the onus is all on the PIC, then the PIC at least deserves accurate information for his/her decision making process.

Yes, we can all make a decision to fly above 3000ft AGL, we can all decide to find every stadium along our route of flight and avoid them totally, we can all get Instrument Ratings, and clog up the system for $100.00 hamburger runs. That's not the issue. If we are expected to know the regs. and the usual sources of information we expect to use in planning flights don't have that information, it just creates a situation that makes our flying lives that much less enjoyable or doable.

Some of the ideas posted here make sense. I like the one about noting certain stadiums on sectionals which meet the 30K capacity threshold and highlighting them. Maybe someone in the charting division will take note.

Oh and BTW, yes, Jeff, I know about the stadium FDC, I do fly in a location with a couple of major sports stadiums packed into a pretty small geographic area: Metlife /Yankee /Citifield, etc. for those locations the word goes out religiously when events are taking place at those venues.

 

[Skylane81E]

Good point. Most of the affected stadia are in/around big cities, and so are most Bravo areas.

Dodger Stadium in Los Angeles is a case in point -- it's below a 2,500 MSL Bravo floor, with a range of hills up to 2,000 MSL five miles to the north and the KBUR Charlie surface area just beyond that. It's hard to fly VFR from El Monte to Santa Monica without going right over the stadium below 2,500 MSL

We are the same in Cincy, and the TFRs pop in largely unused airspace that belongs to Lunken tower (who knows about the games) so it isn't too bad here.

However how about the NASCAR race we had this year, it's out away from the city, not many people actually knew about it....

 

[Skylane81E]

it just creates a situation that makes our flying lives that much less enjoyable or doable.

DING DING DING!! We have a winner!

 

[TangoWhiskey]

And a 9 inning game can last anywhere from a shade under 2 hours to a bit over 4 hours. And of course if the game goes into the 13th, 14th, or 15th inning...

Or when they get rained out on a Saturday, and play an unscheduled double header on Sunday...

Not to mention this is listed on MLBs schedule:

All times Eastern. Subject to change.

And what's wrong (or safe) with staying 3nm away from the stadium the entire day, if an event is scheduled? You're right, you don't know if the game will run long. If it's rained out and rescheduled, that WILL be advertised.

My strategy: if a game is scheduled that day, stay the hell away from the stadium (5 nm is a good number) if I'm passing by down low. It won't add THAT much time to my trip!

 

[EdFred]

And what's wrong (or safe) with staying 3nm away from the stadium the entire day, if an event is scheduled? You're right, you don't know if the game will run long. If it's rained out and rescheduled, that WILL be advertised.

My strategy: if a game is scheduled that day, stay the hell away from the stadium (5 nm is a good number) if I'm passing by down low. It won't add THAT much time to my trip!

Well, if I am going into Mount Pleasant, MI VFR, I can't land there. Untowered field, so I am not authorized by ATC to land.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Honestly, I can think of better things FAA employees can do with their time (and hence my tax money) than looking up sports schedules that I can look up just fine all by myself.

Agreed.

However, this would be a simple thing for Lockheed Martin to add to their information provided during a call-in briefing. A simple "there's a game at Cowboy's in Arlington stadium today, and the Horned Frogs are playing at TCU in South Fort Worth" would be enough. I don't need start times / end times.

I also don't have a problem looking it up myself--that AOPA page is a good one for starts! But, as others have said, the information is already in the system, so if it could be dispensed via "official" channels and sources already in place for "official" pilot briefings, why not?

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Well, if I am going into Mount Pleasant, MI VFR, I can't land there. Untowered field, so I am not authorized by ATC to land.

Agreed. So pick an alternate, or another day to fly. Or, if the times of the game matter to you (as it would in this case, where you WANT to get to Mount Pleasant THAT DAY), do a little more research, find out when the game starts, and plan to land at least 1 hour before then. If you need to go later, watch or listen to the game, or monitor it on ESPN (watch for "FINAL" on the score) and then depart to arrive 1 hour after.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

And what's wrong (or safe) with staying 3nm away from the stadium the entire day, if an event is scheduled? You're right, you don't know if the game will run long. If it's rained out and rescheduled, that WILL be advertised.

My strategy: if a game is scheduled that day, stay the hell away from the stadium (5 nm is a good number) if I'm passing by down low. It won't add THAT much time to my trip!

If I want to go north, I have the no-fly zone to the right (Canada - does not recognize S.P. rules), the class B to the left and above, and the stadum airspace in between.

I don't go that way if there is a chance of a game. There are only two miles to climb from less than 3000 ft (one step of the class B floor) to greater than 3600 but less than 4000 feet (Stadium and B ). Too easy to eff up while circling for altitude over Zug island.

Going around means going all the way around the class B. I find someplace south or west to fly to.

 

[EdFred]

Agreed. So pick an alternate, or another day to fly. Or, if the times of the game matter to you (as it would in this case, where you WANT to get to Mount Pleasant THAT DAY), do a little more research, find out when the game starts, and plan to land at least 1 hour before then. If you need to go later, watch or listen to the game, or monitor it on ESPN (watch for "FINAL" on the score) and then depart to arrive 1 hour after.

Maybe I'm going to the game, but can't get there more than one hour before kickoff because (insert reason here). Or maybe I'm picking up a Lifeline passenger, or...

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Maybe I'm going to the game, but can't get there more than one hour before kickoff because (insert reason here). Or maybe I'm picking up a Lifeline passenger, or...

Well, now you're just dealing with having to adjust for the TFR. If you can't go, you can't go! General Aviation doesn't mean we get to go anywhere we want anytime we want--but you already know that. :wink2:

I think Ron's "no whining" comment applies here... sometimes we have to deal with the cards we're dealt. And if we don't do that well, we get the pot taken away from us.

 

[EdFred]

What I find ironic is the "only official briefing" must come from DUAT(S) or FSS, but they won't give us all the information. We are left to look it up online - from an unofficial source.

 

[EdFred]

Well, now you're just dealing with having to adjust for the TFR. If you can't go, you can't go! General Aviation doesn't mean we get to go anywhere we want anytime we want--but you already know that. :wink2:

I think Ron's "no whining" comment applies here... sometimes we have to deal with the cards we're dealt. And if we don't do that well, we get the pot taken away from us.

Maybe I'm refereeing the game!

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Maybe I'm refereeing the game!

Then you'll be there more than 1 hour before the game! PLAY BALL!

 

[Bob Noel]

It's useless nonsense like these TFRs and the pilots that accept them that are significant reasons I don't want to fly so much.

Resources spent on useless TFRs are not available for actual security measures.

 

[mikea]

Are ALL stadiums with a 30,000 or above seating capacity shown on charts?

You can get all of the stadiums with a potential TFR ring on an aeroplanner.com flight plan.

It's not just stadiums, like, we have to know when Chicago Raceway to the south is having a race...and aim away from nuke plants,...and dams....and other power plants. At least you can see those.

 

[Mike I]

It seems this is the only piece of information that cannot be obtained from an official source that's required to legally and safely complete a flight, no? Other TFR information, WX, and NOTAMs can be obtained from a briefer or official online FAA resources. Charts depicting airspace to be avoided are distributed from official sources (NACO). The information concerning restricted areas and MOAs is on the chart or can be obtained from a briefer.

What other piece of information, besides the "Stadium TFR", must a pilot obtain from unofficial sources to stay on the proper side of the law?

 

[Pilawt]

upon landing at the home drome, the classic 'we have a phone number for you to call' request was made to this pilot, upon which he was told that he had violated a TFR at 2800ft just at the eastern edge of the TFR's lateral boundary. [snip] We don't believe that anything further will happen.

I hope that nothing further will happen, but if anything does, please let us know. There was a discussion about this on the Red Board a couple of weeks ago, in which the question was raised whether FAA has ever pursued a certificate action in the case of an inadvertent stadium TFR bust. No one seemed to know of any such action having taken place.

 

[tonycondon]

Well, if I am going into Mount Pleasant, MI VFR, I can't land there. Untowered field, so I am not authorized by ATC to land.

you get clearance from whatever agency controls the TFR. Probably whatever approach or center facility that handles the instrument traffic in and out of there (I have no idea where Mount Pleasant, MI is)

In Ames we had the same problem with the airport being 2 miles from the stadium. We could call Des Moines approach to get a transponder code and permission to go in or out during games.

 

[fgcason]

We are left to look it up online - from an unofficial source.

...that may or may not be updated by the office secretary that day depending on if they are sick or overworked at the time.

Two realistic solutions to the problem:

Maximum hassle version: Map each stadium or other place that might meet the TFR implementation rules. Give an AFD type thing that includes all these locations and half a dozen phone numbers at each facility that will be answered by humans that know what is going on there that day. Draw the line on the chart then start calling phone numbers. If the pilot doesn't call or penetrates the TFR, the pilot gets busted. If the stadium doesn't answer or doesn't give the right information, the stadium gets busted and the pilot gets left alone with no penalties.
As a side effect if every stadium in the country gets 38,671 phone calls a day that they are unconditionally federally mandated to humanly answer 24hrs a day from pilots flying everywhere, someone might get annoyed enough to do something sensible about the whole mess..like storming DC with torches and pitchforks telling them to leave us alone.

Minimal hassle version: The FAA could create a new sectional. It's just like the normal sectional with one addition. Absolutely every single location that could possibly maybe have a TFR slapped on it on a typical day is circled to the boundary limits with a bunch of grey ///// through that area. Put in a dark grey two digit number like the maximum terrain elevation numbers on a sectional and there is the ceiling of the TFR. Entire sections of the country could be slashed out if necessary. Stay out of or above the slashed areas 24/7/365 and you're mostly safe even if you just hop in and go fly like we use to be able to do in the 1980's before the gustappo took over. FSS/DUATS is then required to give any TFR's that fall outside the slashed areas to help you stay out of trouble in the remaining airspace. Any TFR's outside the slashes can only be implemented during a national emergency or after a month long notam of TFR intent.
If you bust that setup, you pretty much had it coming and are likely the type that busted the national borders ADIZ in the 1980's or pretty close anyway.

 

[poadeleted20]

It is what it is. But chugging along at 2500 AGL 2 miles away hardly qualifies as a "buzz job"...

If anyone knows of someone snagged for flying at 2500 AGL 2 miles from a sporting event without violating some other rule or airspace, I'd like to hear about it.

 

[poadeleted20]

Somebody (hello AOPA/+Congressmen) needs to rattle the FAA's cage and make them actually do something to help us stay out of trouble instead of setting traps for us. What a competely worthless agency.

This was not the FAA's idea -- they just promulgate a rule they were required to make, so rattling the FAA's cage is pointless.

 

[poadeleted20]

Well, if I am going into Mount Pleasant, MI VFR, I can't land there. Untowered field, so I am not authorized by ATC to land.

The fact that it isn't a towered airport doesn't stop you from contacting the ATC facility with jurisdiction over that airspace for approval.

 

[gismo]

No, it was not a joke.

The NOTAM is actually pretty clear. Just because FSS doesn't spoon feed you all the details doesn't mean the information isn't available.

And if the game is delayed or extended, how do you know? I've even tried asking FSS and they can't tell for certain if a stadium TFR is active currently.

What's really stupid is that this is a blatant (financial) misuse of a relatively nonsensical mechanism (security TFR) since as already mentioned, the real purpose is to keep banner towers away. From a security perspective it's pointless since virtually any aircraft from a balloon to a part 91 747 could do whatever damage they might manage (crash, bomb drop, machine gun fire, etc) sans TFR whether or not the TFR was in place.