Becoming a DPE

[nebraskabonanza]

Currently I'm about to take my instrument checkride here in the next few weeks or so. The DPE who I am using is charging over $1000 for an instrument checkride. I've long believed DPEs are out there to extort as much money as they can from students and is a really crooked business. I was wondering if perhaps one day in the long future and I became a DPE and I charged next to nothing for a checkride, $100 would the FAA step in and tell me to stop? I would love undercut everyone and mess up the DPE industry.

 

[RyanShort1]

Currently I'm about to take my instrument checkride here in the next few weeks or so. The DPE who I am using is charging over $1000 for an instrument checkride. I've long believed DPEs are out there to extort as much money as they can from students and is a really crooked business. I was wondering if perhaps one day in the long future and I became a DPE and I charged next to nothing for a checkride, $100 would the FAA step in and tell me to stop? I would love undercut everyone and mess up the DPE industry.

By the time you get there you’d probably change your mind. Had a really interesting situation on my last checkride where a local DPE actually told me he thought I should get a couple more ratings and then apply to be one. Had a discussion with an instructor I respect down in Waco, and he broke down why he’d rather be a CFI than a DPE and it made a lot of sense. The reward *is* mainly financial vs the reward of teaching often being relational and being a gatekeeper isn’t all fun and games. You can end up having examinees that hate you, as well as constantly being under scrutiny from the FAA who could terminate you pretty much any time for all the effort for as little as a glass of wine on a zoom call (allegedly, but I know that guy and believe him). There’s also the fact that DPEs are expected to jump into planes they really don’t know very well, with students they likely have just met, and some of those planes are, well, run hard and not always in tip-top shape.

 

[TCABM]

If you can make a go at it at $100/checkride, have at it.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I seriously doubt that you’d mess up the industry. You’ll find several threads here on the topic of what DPEs charge, and what you’ll see from posters who are familiar with the qualifications of examiners is that DPEs are charging what is essentially normal daily rates for the flying they do, or maybe a little less.

They’re not gouging, they’re simply charging for their time.

 

[ateamer]

Currently I'm about to take my instrument checkride here in the next few weeks or so. The DPE who I am using is charging over $1000 for an instrument checkride. I've long believed DPEs are out there to extort as much money as they can from students and is a really crooked business. I was wondering if perhaps one day in the long future and I became a DPE and I charged next to nothing for a checkride, $100 would the FAA step in and tell me to stop? I would love undercut everyone and mess up the DPE industry.

Which one are you - Dunning or Kruger?

 

[EdFred]

I seriously doubt that you’d mess up the industry. You’ll find several threads here on the topic of what DPEs charge, and what you’ll see from posters who are familiar with the qualifications of examiners is that DPEs are charging what is essentially normal daily rates for the flying they do, or maybe a little less.

They’re not gouging, they’re simply charging for their time.

I dunno. If they average 3 checkrides a week ( and I know one that's well above that for the year) at $1000/ride that's 156k a year. Seems a bit on the gouge-y side.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I dunno. If they average 3 checkrides a week ( and I know one that's well above that for the year) at $1000/ride that's 156k a year. Seems a bit on the gouge-y side.

If they average 3 flying days a week at $1000/day, that’s also $156k a year. I know 1000-hour copilots who make more than that.

 

[BillTIZ]

DPEs are in short supply, market rules of supply and demand apply. Also some years ago the FAA restricted how many check rides a DPE can complete in a day. I think the magic number is 2. Then consider "duty day" hours.

Also consider the time it takes to complete an Instrument Check Ride, or any level check ride. It is not uncommon when counting paperwork completion, brief, question and debrief post flight, to spend at least 5 hrs with the candidate on the ground. Then consider the flight time required for an instrument check ride, much longer than a Private or Commercial maneuvers ride. I would be surprised if a DPE could complete more than 1 Instrument ride in a day.

You mention 3 rides a week at $1AMU per ride = $156K per year. That assumes he takes no time off, no vacation with the family. It also assumes that every ride is a $1K ride.
$1K may be a "bit on the gouge-y side" for an Instrument ride, but is it really considering the time involved?

 

[RyanShort1]

1000 hour copilots making the same money are flying better, safer equipment.

 

[EdFred]

If they average 3 flying days a week at $1000/day, that’s also $156k a year. I know 1000-hour copilots who make more than that.

Non equivalent.

I sell a number of different products. Just because I sell one product at one price doesn't mean I sell all products at that same price. Takes me the same amount of time and effort to ship either of them out. I guess I need to sell those $5 items for a few thousand because it takes the same amount of time as when I ship out the few thousand dollar items.

But y'all seem to think that.

 

[EdFred]

DPEs are in short supply, market rules of supply and demand apply. Also some years ago the FAA restricted how many check rides a DPE can complete in a day. I think the magic number is 2. Then consider "duty day" hours.

Also consider the time it takes to complete an Instrument Check Ride, or any level check ride. It is not uncommon when counting paperwork completion, brief, question and debrief post flight, to spend at least 5 hrs with the candidate on the ground. Then consider the flight time required for an instrument check ride, much longer than a Private or Commercial maneuvers ride. I would be surprised if a DPE could complete more than 1 Instrument ride in a day.

You mention 3 rides a week at $1AMU per ride = $156K per year. That assumes he takes no time off, no vacation with the family. It also assumes that every ride is a $1K ride.
$1K may be a "bit on the gouge-y side" for an Instrument ride, but is it really considering the time involved?

My IR ride took about 3 hours. Yeah, $333/hour is gouge-y.

And that 3/week is an average. Or in your world does that mean they can never do more than 3 a week?

 

[MauleSkinner]

Non equivalent.

I sell a number of different products. Just because I sell one product at one price doesn't mean I sell all products at that same price. Takes me the same amount of time and effort to ship either of them out. I guess I need to sell those $5 items for a few thousand because it takes the same amount of time as when I ship out the few thousand dollar items.

But y'all seem to think that.

True…as Ryan indicated, DPEs should make more than copilots.

 

[EdFred]

True…as Ryan indicated, DPEs should make more than copilots.

I never saw that statement made by him.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I never saw that statement made by him.

Significantly increased risk should warrant more money.

 

[EdFred]

Significantly increased risk should warrant more money.

If that was the case, factory workers would be paid higher than the owners, or to make it more equivalent inner city teachers should get paid more than college professors.

 

[MauleSkinner]

If that was the case, factory workers would be paid higher than the owners.

If that was the case, DPEs would be paid more than pilots, so we’re back to the same place.

 

[EdFred]

If that was the case, DPEs would be paid more than pilots, so we’re back to the same place.

Why? As Ryan said, they aren't teaching anything. Y'all seem to think that every hour is equal, and flying a jet is the equivalent to checking off boxes in a spam can.

My pay for my day job is ridiculously higher than what I charge for flight instruction. But according to your logic,I should be charging over 10x more per hour than what I am when i flight instruct. And 10 times more than that if I was a DPE. Because...*magic hand waves*

 

[MauleSkinner]

Why? As Ryan said, they aren't teaching anything. Y'all seem to think that every hour is equal, and flying a jet is the equivalent to checking off boxes in a spam can.

My pay for my day job is ridiculously higher than what I charge for flight instruction. But according to your logic,I should be charging over 10x more per hour than what I am when i flight instruct.

Teaching is an entirely different topic, but I would say that good instructors should make more than they generally do.

 

[robin ardoin]

Who wants to bet against me that this is a one off post?

I think he farted in our elevator and stepped off as the door was closing.

Sheesh...

 

[FancyG]

My private checkride was with a senior airline captain. I felt that he became a DPE to give back to aviation.

He was awesome to fly with and made sure to cover the real world things I needed to know as a new pilot to stay safe. My future checkrides will be with him.

 

[SkyChaser]

Didn't we just have this thread?

 

[Anthem]

people arguing $333/hr is gougy when the majority of pilots going for their ratings are getting more than that per hour. . . so every pilot working for every legacy airline (and southwest and JB) are gouging their employers as well, right ? These guys all have similar time flying and experience. And a lot of DPE's are actually charger captains doing this during their non-scheduled time.

As for the OP - yeah good luck to you at $100. And you literally have one checkride under your belt and are diminishing the entire DPE structure. If you think making $150K per year (or even doubling that) is extortion, then you're in for a rude awakening.

 

[Half Fast]

If they average 3 flying days a week at $1000/day, that’s also $156k a year. I know 1000-hour copilots who make more than that.

Interesting new business management theory you have there. Paying people for what they could be doing instead but aren't.

One of my LockMart colleagues retired a while ago. He's a EE and one of the top missile power supply designers around (and there ain't many cats who do that work). When he retired, he took a job driving a school bus. With your business method for determining compensation, he should earn about a quarter mil a year for driving a school bus.

Interesting theory.....

DPEs are in short supply, market rules of supply and demand apply.

It's not a free market. The FAA has distorted the market by limiting the number of DPEs.

 

[Anthem]

It's not a free market. The FAA has distorted the market by limiting the number of DPEs.

They havent. The number has stayed the same or increased. There is just a much larger pool of people who have decided to jump in and do flight training in the last couple of years - which is slowing down and will continue to do so after all the people who are chasing what they perceive to be a job that pays them more than any of their other options without a college degree - slowly trickle out of the system.

 

[Half Fast]

people arguing $333/hr is gougy when the majority of pilots going for their ratings are getting more than that per hour. . . so every pilot working for every legacy airline (and southwest and JB) are gouging their employers as well, right ? These guys all have similar time flying and experience. And a lot of DPE's are actually charger captains doing this during their non-scheduled time.

When acting as a DPE, they're not doing the job of flying an airliner. Determining whether a PP candidate can recover from a stall or do a short-field takeoff does not require the same skill set and in a truly free market would not warrant the same pay as an airline captain.

People aren't paid for a job based on what their other job pays.

 

[Half Fast]

They havent. The number has stayed the same or increased. There is just a much larger pool of people who have decided to jump in and do flight training in the last couple of years - which is slowing down and will continue to do so after all the people who are chasing what they perceive to be a job that pays them more than any of their other options without a college degree - slowly trickle out of the system.

Baloney. I know several people who have tried to become DPEs but were told by the FAA that more aren't needed. The FAA is controlling the quantity of examiners, rather than letting market demand do it.

 

[RyanShort1]

Why? As Ryan said, they aren't teaching anything. Y'all seem to think that every hour is equal, and flying a jet is the equivalent to checking off boxes in a spam can.

My pay for my day job is ridiculously higher than what I charge for flight instruction. But according to your logic,I should be charging over 10x more per hour than what I am when i flight instruct. And 10 times more than that if I was a DPE. Because...*magic hand waves*

The money is because of the level of responsibility and risk, and because anyone that’s a DPE could probably do better somewhere else. I didn’t like the $1K I recently put out for my Comm-multi, but in the grand scheme of things I think it made reasonable sense.

Interesting new business management theory you have there. Paying people for what they could be doing instead but aren't.

One of my LockMart colleagues retired a while ago. He's a EE and one of the top missile power supply designers around (and there ain't many cats who do that work). When he retired, he took a job driving a school bus. With your business method for determining compensation, he should earn about a quarter mil a year for driving a school bus.

Interesting theory.....



It's not a free market. The FAA has distorted the market by limiting the number of DPEs.

Comparing a person entrusted with the responsibility of deciding who is safe enough to fly to a bus driver is a bit demeaning. Check airmen at airlines also earn more than the airline pilots, if I’m not mistaken. And yes, maybe the FAA has limited the number of DPEs, or maybe it’s self-limiting. Most senior airline pilots don’t teach as instructors because of liability and DPEs seem to have even more liability. The DPE that asked me to consider it said that they need more and a lot of his colleagues are aging out…

 

[Anthem]

When acting as a DPE, they're not doing the job of flying an airliner. Determining whether a PP candidate can recover from a stall or do a short-field takeoff does not require the same skill set and in a truly free market would not warrant the same pay as an airline captain.

People aren't paid for a job based on what their other job pays.

absolutely. But a flight examiner getting paid $100-$200K is absolutely reasonable if thats their job. Hell some may make more. If you think they should be paid $20/hour - then you're out of touch with reality. The amount of DPE's are there - its the same. The market forces will determine what they can charge and how much. Yes, there are limits to how many the FAA DPE's are there - but the reality is that there isnt that many people clamoring to be a DPE. Yeah you might know a few - but that number is not large.

Yes, the FAA also limits the number of AME,s HIMS AMEs, and Psychs as well. But none of them are what I would call in massive short supply.

 

[EdFred]

people arguing $333/hr is gougy when the majority of pilots going for their ratings are getting more than that per hour. . . so every pilot working for every legacy airline (and southwest and JB) are gouging their employers as well, right ? These guys all have similar time flying and experience. And a lot of DPE's are actually charger captains doing this during their non-scheduled time.

As for the OP - yeah good luck to you at $100. And you literally have one checkride under your belt and are diminishing the entire DPE structure. If you think making $150K per year (or even doubling that) is extortion, then you're in for a rude awakening.

What?

No one is getting paid $333/hour while going for their ratings.

 

[DJTorrente]

This thread just illustrates another reason that I think the FAA is why we don't yet have flying cars.

 

[Anthem]

What?

No one is getting paid $333/hour while going for their ratings.

Well technically every airline pilot at the legacy going for a type rating are at that level - certainly multi year captains. But what I was intending to say was that every single one of these guys going for their ratings to become airline (121, 135 etc) pilots will all be making those numbers or wanting to be making those numbers. And is that gougy at that point ?

 

[EdFred]

The money is because of the level of responsibility and risk, and because anyone that’s a DPE could probably do better somewhere else. I didn’t like the $1K I recently put out for my Comm-multi, but in the grand scheme of things I think it made reasonable sense.

Comparing a person entrusted with the responsibility of deciding who is safe enough to fly to a bus driver is a bit demeaning. Check airmen at airlines also earn more than the airline pilots, if I’m not mistaken. And yes, maybe the FAA has limited the number of DPEs, or maybe it’s self-limiting. Most senior airline pilots don’t teach as instructors because of liability and DPEs seem to have even more liability. The DPE that asked me to consider it said that they need more and a lot of his colleagues are aging out…

Substitute bus driver for anything. His experience as an engineer should not translate across to whatever other job it is. Just as knowing the systems of a trans-oceanic wide body should not correlate to the DPE job.

Well technically every airline pilot at the legacy going for a type rating are at that level - certainly multi year captains. But what I was intending to say was that every single one of these guys going for their ratings to become airline (121, 135 etc) pilots will all be making those numbers or wanting to be making those numbers. And is that gougy at that point ?

Yeah, to me, to make $330k for part time work is a bit gougy.

 

[Anthem]

Substitute bus driver for anything. His experience as an engineer should not translate across to whatever other job it is. Just as knowing the systems of a trans-oceanic wide body should not correlate to the DPE job.

Yeah, to me, to make $330k for part time work is a bit gougy.

then every commercial pilot in the airlines is gougy. . . 14 on 16 off. . . thats part time as well. ., . .

 

[Half Fast]

Comparing a person entrusted with the responsibility of deciding who is safe enough to fly to a bus driver is a bit demeaning.

That's not what I wrote. I merely gave an example where qualifications to do a high-paying job do not mean a person should get that high pay when doing a less demanding job.

And yes, maybe the FAA has limited the number of DPEs,

Yes, there are limits to how many the FAA DPE's are there

Let's try removing that distortion and see what happens with a free market. Maybe you'll be proven correct. But I doubt it.

 

[EdFred]

then every commercial pilot in the airlines is gougy. . . 14 on 16 off. . . thats part time as well. ., . .

I know. But not every one is getting $333/hour.

 

[MauleSkinner]

It's not a free market. The FAA has distorted the market by limiting the number of DPEs.

Actually, Congress has limited the number of DPEs by limiting the number of ASIs.

 

[TCABM]

…. He's a EE and one of the top missile power supply designers around (and there ain't many cats who do that work)...

Easier to be a big fish in a small pond, but I digress.

Apparently top AI software engineers can pull 7-figure comp packages right now.

 

[Half Fast]

Actually, Congress has limited the number of DPEs by limiting the number of ASIs.

Actually, the FAA has failed to find ways to be more efficient.

 

[robin ardoin]

Heck, My DPE charged me $800 for my PP check in January and $800 for my IR check last week. I gave him $900 each because he is a great guy and was able to get me on a schedule that was not many months out. He said he could perform two checks a day/ 7 days a week and still be booked out if he wanted to.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Baloney. I know several people who have tried to become DPEs but were told by the FAA that more aren't needed. The FAA is controlling the quantity of examiners, rather than letting market demand do it.

Exactly. Because DPE's are designees of the Administrator and are required to do their job function as ordered by the Administrator. And that requires oversight by the Administrator.

The FAA does not have the personnel to do oversight if the number of DPE's are increased. Congress must approve in their budget the funds for additional Inspectors, and they haven't been willing to increase those numbers. So the FAA is left with only being able to approve and provide oversight for the current DPE staffing level.

FAA does not and has never set a fee structure for their various designees. What the designee charges does not benefit the FAA.