Reselling N-Numbers as a Business

nauga said:
We'll recycle all the N-numbers for the airplanes that can't fly because they can only burn 100LL. We can play what-if games all day.

Nauga,
who's got that kinda time
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This isn't a what if game. It's already happening.
 
Someone should post who owns short-n-numbers. Then some concerned pilots should go “convince” the owner to knock it off. Ah the good old days of vigilante justice…
 
caverjamie said:
Someone should post who owns short-n-numbers. Then some concerned pilots should go “convince” the owner to knock it off. Ah the good old days of vigilante justice…
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I suspect the bail, legal fees, and ultimate fine for the assault charge are still cheaper than a custom N number.
 
schmookeeg said:
I suspect the bail, legal fees, and ultimate fine for the assault charge are still cheaper than a custom N number.
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Haha! Yeah, I just noticed his name was posted already too. I think Sean is hoarding numbers as part of a terrorist plot, better tip off the FBI…
 
I don't want to give the FAA any more projects that will distract them from MOSAIC or streamlining Part 23 certification.
 
Cluemeister said:
streamlining Part 23 certification.
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FYI: the "streamlining" or rewriting of Part 23 was completed about 5 or 6 years ago. You'll find the majority of the previous regulations were deleted and the associated guidance moved into Advisory Circulars that allow a person to use performance-based standards like ASTM or others to certify new aircraft.
 
EdFred said:
So if someone buys up every N-number making none of them available, then what?
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very valid point!

Then wether we like it or not the regulations around purchasing em need addressing, and I’m not opposed to that.

But until they are changed it’s just a capitalist capitalizing… if it ain’t against the rules it’s an opportunity. I’m not against regulation when it’s necessary and your point brings up a reason regulation may/should address this.

I was on planning commission one time, made myself rather unpopular. Speedway (franchise gas brand) wanted to redo their building and brought proposed plans - the city planner advised us to shoot it down as all brick would look better. I asked where that was in our zoning ordinance. It wasn’t. I said then we either approve it or change the zoning regulations… I was the oddball out.
 
EdFred said:
So if someone buys up every N-number making none of them available, then what?
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Has anyone done the math on the total available N numbers? I thought we had a bunch of math major engineering types in this forum. I'm talking to you @Half Fast !
 
Cluemeister said:
Has anyone done the math on the total available N numbers? I thought we had a bunch of math major engineering types in this forum. I'm talking to you @Half Fast !
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If I remember the number scheme correctly, I think it winds up being

10 x 10 x 9 x 35 x 35 = 1,102,500 ?

10 = can be 1-9, or omitted
9 = can be 1-9
35 = can be 1-9 or A-Z
 
As schmookeeg mentioned the FAA official format is:

- One to five digits (N12345)
- One to four digits followed by one letter (N1234Z)
- One to three digits followed by two letters (N123AZ)

Cannot have zero as first digit
Cannot have letters I or O

So I think it would be: 99999 + (9999 * 24) + (999 * 24 * 24) = 915,399
 
cruiserandmax said:
As schmookeeg mentioned the FAA official format is:

- One to five digits (N12345)
- One to four digits followed by one letter (N1234Z)
- One to three digits followed by two letters (N123AZ)

Cannot have zero as first digit
Cannot have letters I or O

So I think it would be: 99999 + (9999 * 24) + (999 * 24 * 24) = 915,399
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Crazy to think that if this math is right, the Cessna Skyhawk could have represented like 5% of all possible N numbers. They were over 40,000 made if I recall.
 
2digits:
na
216
3digits can be
nnn, nna, naa
900+2160+5184
4 digits
nnnn, nnna, nnaa
9000+21600+51840
5 digits
nnnnn, nnnna, nnnaa
90000+216000+518400

915300 if my math is right.
 
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So about 8,000 total 3 digit N numbers. Assuming those are the ones that are profitable, I wonder how many are currently taken by aircraft, and how many are reserved by the resellers?
 
I think the FAA's most likely resolution to this problem would be to eliminate the choice of N numbers. They would assign your N number. Be careful what you wish for!
 
Cluemeister said:
I think the FAA's most likely resolution to this problem would be to eliminate the choice of N numbers. They would assign your N number. Be careful what you wish for!
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More likely they’d begin charging thousands of dollars for them. Why let a private business rake in money that the gov’t could be taking?
 
Half Fast said:
More likely they’d begin charging thousands of dollars for them. Why let a private business keep money that the gov’t could be taking?
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I didn't FIFY, since the original quote was accurate...I just expanded on it.
 
I inquired about a short number. Dickweed replied from Short N Numbers. $9500. FAA search isn’t accurate. When you search for available, and then go to reserve it… it’s been reserved. The bot beats the human to the availability. Pro capitalist, but again… as said… public resources being abused. The guy is Iceland based. Doesn’t fly. He’s a scumbag who’s the son of a prostitute. Ughh.
 
nauga said:
How does an Ex/AB builder prove they have an airplane? Can't get an airworthiness cert without an N-number, don't have an airplane without an airworthiness cert.

My airplane was several crates full of aluminum when I reserved my N-number. The one I wanted was already reserved but I'm OK with what I got.

Nauga,
N-mumblemumble
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Did you buy the parts or steal them?
 
PaulS said:
Did you buy the parts or steal them?
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BUILT THEM

I buy parts all the time, so I guess I can get an N number reserved. lol

Your approach doesn't work.
 
I did not read the whole thread. But it is an interesting problem. If you think there is a real issue here, there are two solutions which the FAA could implement. One technical, one regulatory.
Technical first. Implement captcha when trying to register a number. This will effectively stop the bots.
Regulatory, make N-Numbers non-transferable unless they are/were attached to a register aircraft. e.g. For me to sell an n-number it has to be on my plane.

Tim
 
Salty said:
BUILT THEM

I buy parts all the time, so I guess I can get an N number reserved. lol

Your approach doesn't work.
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No, I suppose if you are a pedant nothing will work.

We had this discussion a year and a half ago, but nothing has changed. Sorry I quoted your old post Nauga. These parasites are allowed to reserve hundreds or more of numbers just to resell. Limit the amount of numbers individuals can reserve to 5, make them show that they are in the process of building a plane, put an expiration on how long you can hold a number with a renewal process that links the number to an airplane in the process of being built. If my state DMV can set up a system that prevents people from hoarding numbers for resale, I'm sure the FAA can figure it out too.
 
Bots are not an issue. The Faa reports are confusing and badly written, which is what causes it to say something is available and then not be minutes later. If you pull the raw data you can see what's really going on. It's a confusing mess.
 
PaulS said:
No, I suppose if you are a pedant nothing will work.

We had this discussion a year and a half ago, but nothing has changed. Sorry I quoted your old post Nauga. These parasites are allowed to reserve hundreds or more of numbers just to resell. Limit the amount of numbers individuals can reserve to 5, make them show that they are in the process of building a plane, put an expiration on how long you can hold a number with a renewal process that links the number to an airplane in the process of being built. If my state DMV can set up a system that prevents people from hoarding numbers for resale, I'm sure the FAA can figure it out too.
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I didn't say nothing will work. I only said your solution was unworkable.
 
PaulS said:
What's my solution that doesn't work?
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One more time.... You can't use a bill of sale. It doesn't work. A bill of sale is not always available. In fact, most of the time the initial N number is requested, there is no bill of sale yet.

Not sure why you're getting so worked up about it anyway. Not sure how you could get the FAA to take action even if you found the "perfect" solution that everyone agreed with. Show me a path for change and I'll jump on board (for a solution that works).
 
Salty said:
One more time.... You can't use a bill of sale. It doesn't work. A bill of sale is not always available. In fact, most of the time the initial N number is requested, there is no bill of sale yet.

Not sure why you're getting so worked up about it anyway. Not sure how you could get the FAA to take action even if you found the "perfect" solution that everyone agreed with. Show me a path for change and I'll jump on board (for a solution that works).
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I'm not worked up about it, but you've got me confused because I think we are pretty close on this. I'm looking for the post where I said "bill of sale", help me out here. BTW, I just registered an airplane I purchased, guess what the FAA required for the transfer? But I agree, for reserving a number a "bill of sale" won't work.
 
Sales agreement has the same Problem and is easily faked to boot.
 
Salty said:
Sales agreement has the same Problem and is easily faked to boot.
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Ah, sales agreement. By sales agreement I meant between a kit manufacturer and a builder, proof that the intent is to build the plane, not necessarily an agreement to sell an already built plane, although some provision would be needed for that too. I consider the sales agreement the beginning of plane construction. I guess I should have added "kit sales agreement" to make it clearer.

I think the key provision for new rules would be to exclude people like the guy in Iceland, or where ever he is, from stock piling numbers with the only intention to flip them to make money.

Another way would be to only allow entities that can show a need for numbers, entities that build airplanes for example, to stock pile N numbers, and again, limit them to some small multiple of number of airplanes they forecast they can build. The goal being that if you reserve a number, it eventually ends up on an active airplane reservation.

For some like Nauga, who has a box of parts, have him show his design, or sign a doc of his intent to build, let him reserve one number.

Finally people who skirt rules by cheating or making false docs, they are always around, deal with them as they are caught.

This isn't tough to figure out.

Personally, it's just a number to me. I live in a state where automobile vanity plates are no extra charge, I still just have random numbers on my plates.
 
PaulS said:
Ah, sales agreement. By sales agreement I meant between a kit manufacturer and a builder, proof that the intent is to build the plane, not necessarily an agreement to sell an already built plane, although some provision would be needed for that too. I consider the sales agreement the beginning of plane construction. I guess I should have added "kit sales agreement" to make it clearer.

I think the key provision for new rules would be to exclude people like the guy in Iceland, or where ever he is, from stock piling numbers with the only intention to flip them to make money.

Another way would be to only allow entities that can show a need for numbers, entities that build airplanes for example, to stock pile N numbers, and again, limit them to some small multiple of number of airplanes they forecast they can build. The goal being that if you reserve a number, it eventually ends up on an active airplane reservation.

For some like Nauga, who has a box of parts, have him show his design, or sign a doc of his intent to build, let him reserve one number.

Finally people who skirt rules by cheating or making false docs, they are always around, deal with them as they are caught.

This isn't tough to figure out.

Personally, it's just a number to me. I live in a state where automobile vanity plates are no extra charge, I still just have random numbers on my plates.
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There are thousands of people building experimental without a contract with a kit manufacturer. Heck, there's probably more manufacturer's out of business these days than in. There are plenty of easy ways to fix the problem, that solution is not a good one.
 
Salty said:
There are thousands of people building experimental without a contract with a kit manufacturer. Heck, there's probably more manufacturer's out of business these days than in. There are plenty of easy ways to fix the problem, that solution is not a good one.
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Ah, your opinion. Once again you are being pedantic. I gave an example of how to deal with someone who wasn't using a kit company, so I covered that. Experimental builders are probably just a small percentage of people affected by this problem. Let's hear your great idea.
 
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