Best Upgrade Order???

Sinistar

Sinistar

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Brad
We love our old Skylane but like many out there it could use a full upgrade. We picked it up for a nice price back before the hysteria set it so not too much into yet. About 2500hrs total time. Will be TBO in 300hrs with one cylinder needing to be replaced. 90's era avionics + GTX345.

Would like a jpi 9xx engine monitor so can do that before engine overhaul or as part of overhaul or full panel update.

Panel: At a minimum want new radios, audio panel and auto pilot for the longer flights. Ideally a G3X, 355. Wife is IR and I will do it once plane has RNAV equipment. So can do panel before or after motor, paint or interior.

Paint: we are pretty sure of colors so we could confidently do an interior before paint or panel.

Is the best order something like:

Motor (do it before cowls will be painted)
Panel (jpi for new eng)
Paint (Need to preceed interior?)
Interior

...obviously if market drops we'd abort everything above and seek out something fully updated. But let's go with scenario where prices just level off and at most, drop no more than 10%.

What order would you update in?
 
I would skip the engine. Replace cylinder and carry on.

Get your JPI to give you a little more peace of mind with the “old” engine.

Can’t comment on the paint & interior order, other than I don’t think it matters.

Engine change later shouldn’t affect a new paint job.
 
Any thought of upgrading the engine to a PPonk??? When it’s time for that step??
 
My #1 priority would be the gps. I'm okay with an ugly airplane so long as I can fly it ifr.

I wouldn't worry too much about doing the engine before the paint. My cowling gets just as many chips & scratches taking it off for oil changes as it did the engine. That's where having a simple scheme with colors that are easy to match is nice. I have a little brush bottle (like white out comes in) of rustoleum "appliance white" that is a perfect match to my paint.

Any thoughts on running the engine monitor through the g3x? I like my jpi, but if I was designing my panel from scratch I'd look hard at the garmin offerings.
 
Sinistar said:
We love our old Skylane but like many out there it could use a full upgrade. We picked it up for a nice price back before the hysteria set it so not too much into yet. About 2500hrs total time. Will be TBO in 300hrs with one cylinder needing to be replaced. 90's era avionics + GTX345.

Would like a jpi 9xx engine monitor so can do that before engine overhaul or as part of overhaul or full panel update.

Panel: At a minimum want new radios, audio panel and auto pilot for the longer flights. Ideally a G3X, 355. Wife is IR and I will do it once plane has RNAV equipment. So can do panel before or after motor, paint or interior.

Paint: we are pretty sure of colors so we could confidently do an interior before paint or panel.

Is the best order something like:

Motor (do it before cowls will be painted)
Panel (jpi for new eng)
Paint (Need to preceed interior?)
Interior

...obviously if market drops we'd abort everything above and seek out something fully updated. But let's go with scenario where prices just level off and at most, drop no more than 10%.

What order would you update in?
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How do you know one cylinder will need to be replaced in 300 hours? How do you know it won’t need it before then. Or any of the others. I’d set aside enough money to do the whole engine, overhaul or new, at anytime. Not get caught in a situation where you emptied the piggy bank on all the other stuff assuming you had plenty of time to fill it back up again for the engine a few years down the road
 
luvflyin said:
How do you know one cylinder will need to be replaced in 300 hours?
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I read that as 300 until TBO with a cylinder needing to be replaced now. But it’s not very clear.
 
TCABM said:
I read that as 300 until TBO with a cylinder needing to be replaced now. But it’s not very clear.
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Yeah. Maybe that. I’d wonder what happened to that cylinder. Something very specific to just it. Or something that’s going to catch up to some of the others soon. Ya just might end up being money ahead doing the whole engine now.
 
Sorry for confusion. Engine is 300 TBO. Currently have one cylinder with a sticking ring or not seated well. Its not the valve. It's blowing by a good amount of oil. A&P walked me thru it while I assisted on the annual. Trying MMO in fuel (and oil) and at 10hrs in maybe its helped a bit. Gonna give it another 20hrs and if oil burn doesn't get better were gonna try the Borax trick on just that cylinder or then it's coming off.

I do budget for engine overhaul and have full amount set aside. I think it will cost $10k less if our current mechanic does it soon. But he also retires soon so going preemptively here might actually be cheaper.

The goal is definitely to PPonk and would be nicer to have more like 285hp. I've already discussed the PPonk with mechanic.

Wasnt sure if anyone had regretted not waiting to paint until after engine overhaul.

I'm guessing paint needs to precede final interior as some of the surfaces wrap to inside and beneath interior panels, etc.

Also not sure if panel prices are climbing faster than paint or interior and all the related plastic pieces, etc.
 
Engine last...if it's not talking to you. TBO doesn't mean much. It's a suggestion.

Funny how perspective changes on engine tbo as an owner vs buyer.
 
Sinistar said:
Sorry for confusion. Engine is 300 TBO. Currently have one cylinder with a sticking ring or not seated well. Its not the valve. It's blowing by a good amount of oil. A&P walked me thru it while I assisted on the annual. Trying MMO in fuel (and oil) and at 10hrs in maybe its helped a bit. Gonna give it another 20hrs and if oil burn doesn't get better were gonna try the Borax trick on just that cylinder or then it's coming off.

I do budget for engine overhaul and have full amount set aside. I think it will cost $10k less if our current mechanic does it soon. But he also retires soon so going preemptively here might actually be cheaper.

The goal is definitely to PPonk and would be nicer to have more like 285hp. I've already discussed the PPonk with mechanic.

Wasnt sure if anyone had regretted not waiting to paint until after engine overhaul.

I'm guessing paint needs to precede final interior as some of the surfaces wrap to inside and beneath interior panels, etc.

Also not sure if panel prices are climbing faster than paint or interior and all the related plastic pieces, etc.
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Anything avionics related has been greatly affected by the chip shortage.
 
Sinistar said:
were gonna try the Borax trick on just that cylinder or then it's coming off.
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Not familiar with that one.

Have you heard of the one Busch recommends where you fill the cylinder full of solvent and force it past the rings?
 
I think the borax is used to rough up a bad hone job. Not unstick rings. Would not recommend.
 
1. Avionics
2. Interior
3. Paint

Engine - be ready for it, but wait until it needs it. That could be 5-10 years away. Could also be this year. Your engine monitor will help with that. It’s not an upgrade, IMOP.
 
Jim K said:
Not familiar with that one.

Have you heard of the one Busch recommends where you fill the cylinder full of solvent and force it past the rings?
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The ring flush procedure...
 

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@Sinistar overhauls are currently back logged about 12-20 weeks, depending on shop. Some aren't even taking an order. IF you have a 2 blade prop and can find an older IO-470, they're doing the Norland conversion in under 10weeks. It's about as cheap as a PPonk but you'd have to sell your own core.

If your plane will be "down" for overhaul, sportsman stol? GNX-375?
 
Sinistar said:
…I do budget for engine overhaul and have full amount set aside. I think it will cost $10k less if our current mechanic does it soon. But he also retires soon so going preemptively here might actually be cheaper…
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Plusses/minuses. Warranty issues on the field overhaul might be tough. Personally, if we had the reserves for a Western Skyways/Penn Yann/etc. swap, I’d do avionics now.

We did have that in our partnership and it’s how we ended up with 2x G5s at 1600hrs on the 3rd OH this case has seen. Next year is likely new motor time. We plan to order in around Christmas and install next summer during the annual.
 
Clinton-administration avionics should be the first thing to go, IMO.

I prefer the 375 over the 355. Integrated transponder vs potentially problematic comm. (not nav/comm, mind you.)
 
Eric Brunelle said:
1. Avionics
2. Interior
3. Paint
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That's what I'd do. And as Garmin likes to play with Garmin, I'd do GTN 650 (750 if you can swing it), 275 AHRS, 275 HSI, and a 275 engine monitor. Plus of course a new Garmin audio panel and new Nav Com. If you can swing it, substitute the 275 HSI and 275 Engine Monitor for a 10 inch G3X. Still want to spend more money? Do a GTN 650 instead of the 750 and add in a second G3X panel. And to complete it off how about a brand new GFC 500. All in $75,000? Love spending OPM (other peoples money) :) .
 
Definitely get that garmin with the auto land button. Then you can fly it with non pilots aboard until you are 100 years old
 
I believe in function over form. That doesn’t mean I like an ugly airplane, but for me function is first.

If the engine is holding good oil pressure, and not making metal, then just replace the cylinder and move on. Cylinders are just accessories on the engine like a starter or alternator. Take advantage of that as long as the bottom will allow. Splitting it is a huge, peeling the onion step that will cost lots of money and downtime. Don’t go there until you need to.

I wouldn’t do without my JPI, but the monitor could just as easily have a Garmin label on it.
 
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Getting the Garmin engine monitor vs the JPI means it will show up on a G3X or a 275, or whatever you want in the future.
 
Bummer on the 355 problems. Seemed like a great option if kept our working KX155 with GS. But we even want that gone sooner than later.

I didn't realize that the Garmin Engine stuff could replace primary...but love the G3X idea and ability to display there.

What is major difference from 750 navigator and the 175/355/375 navigators other than large display? The 750 must have a comm in it, but what else that can't shown on a G3X...I have no clue so curious.
 
The 650 and 750 have nav com radios. I believe the 750 can also control a remote transponder.

For me the larger size display would be worth it. Still have to interact with it to load / modify your flight plan, be able to select an airport and pull up information on it, etc.

I could see using the 750 for the moving map, weather and traffic, controlling the flight plan, and using the G3X for primary instruments, maybe nav com radio control, synthetic vision. Might also control the autopilot?
 
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I would do the panel/avionics first, because you specifically mentioned wanting to get rid of the existing radios. I read that as they either don't work well, or you don't like them, or both. You can't see much of the paint from the inside, but if you don't like the panel...and you're looking to upgrade something...upgrade the panel. Plan what you'd love, then work toward that. I think I'd do radios/audio if I hated them, then GPS, then autopilot. That's assuming you want fancy linking between gps and autopilot. If you're just looking for something that does altitude/heading hold to ease the single pilot workload, then I'd probably do autopilot after comm. Just me. Put into it what you want it to be, not based on resale unless you're planning on selling soon.
 
750 at least can control remote transponder and remote audio panel.
 
Sinistar said:
What is major difference from 750 navigator and the 175/355/375 navigators other than large display?
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The 175/355/375 have built-in Bluetooth. The 750 does not. The 750 has more Ethernet and RS232 ports than the 175/355/375. The 750 has the NAV radio built-in so when flying an ILS it will automate a couple of tasks for you. The 750 has VNV/VPTH while the 175/355/375 do not.
WDD said:
I believe the 750 can also control a remote transponder.
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Pinecone said:
750 at least can control remote transponder and remote audio panel.
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The 650 can also control a remote transponder. However, only the 750 can control a remote audio panel. (the G3x can also do both, so it's a bit of a moot point for the OP)
 
Albany Tom said:
then GPS, then autopilot
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It's fine to actually install in that order, but it really helps to commit to an autopilot first before deciding everything else. Out of the GFC500, GFC600, Trio or TruTrak choices that you choose has an effect on which GPS and EFIS that you want.
 
Pinecone said:
750 at least can control remote transponder and remote audio panel.
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pannel.jpg


This is my setup. I have the remote transponder and audio panel. When I first got the plane a few years ago, I wasn't sold on everything running through the 750. Now that I've had it a few years I absolutely love it!
 
Our 1962 182 I’ve had for about 20 years.
2019 engine upgrade to Pponk and added JPI 930 engine monitor to replace all engine related instruments.. and new 3 blade prop all three are incredible upgrades
2020 completely re design the panel with two new Dynon HDX 10” monitors GNC 355, GNC 255 and all new wiring for the whole plane. All pre wired for the Dynoon Auto pilot when it’s certified. For IFR flying this upgrade is light years ahead of the legacy panel with incredible margins of increased safety and accurate flight control. Also did most of the interior at the same time.
New Paint in 2021 and VGs what can I say I’m just tired of same old whit paint Scheme
 

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@John Pringle Nice! Mine got a Pponk in 2019 also! It was one of, if not the last Pponk done by Steve Knopp. The guy I bought the plane from was / is friends with Steve. It’s an amazing setup! Love your paint! Beautiful plane!
 
AlphaMike said:
@John Pringle Nice! Mine got a Pponk in 2019 also! It was one of, if not the last Pponk done by Steve Knopp. The guy I bought the plane from was / is friends with Steve. It’s an amazing setup! Love your paint! Beautiful plane!
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Thanks Mike yours as well. The added performance we get from the Pponk engine and prop upgrade are really super. It’s my #1 recommendation if your only flying VFR but if your flying includes IFR the avionics and added accuracy and safety of the glass panel is #1. Now having both I feel like it more capable than it ever has been, no regrets no way no how.
 
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